Is Hive-Engine a Blockchain?

in LeoFinance2 months ago (edited)

image.png

Last night the API (Scotbot) that powers tribes went down, and it started a discussion that I think is important. I won't get into the Scotbot issue as it's not really the point of this post.

Yesterday, I asked in Engine discord if there is any update on Scotbot.

To which @aggroed responds,

To which I respond,

@cryptomancer steps in and states Hive Engine and Steem Engine are in fact blockchains.

@cryptomancer later goes on further explaining how Engine properties are in fact blockchains.

Let me present the official Oxford definition of a blockchain.

image.png

This definition does not describe Hive Engine or Steem Engine at all. From here on out I will refer to Hive Engine and Steem Engine as Engine.

Let's look at some of the core benefits of a blockchain.

  • Decentralized
  • Distributed Ledger
  • Tamper proof
  • Verification without dependency of a third party
  • System is append only, data cannot be altered or deleted (Immutable)
  • Protected by cryptography
  • Transactions are public and verifiable

Without a doubt, Engine is not decentralized.

Transactions on Engine are not distributed across a network

Engine is not tamperproof, at any time anyone on the Engine team with appropriate access can modify balances and transactions.

All verification is dependent on one single third party entity (Engine)

While Engine may in fact as an append only mode, the possibility to edit/delete from the postgres/mongo database is technically possible and relatively easy to do with the correct access.

I don't know enough about the inner workings of Engine to determine if it is in fact protected by cryptography, I suspect it is not and is just stored in postgres but I don't have enough information to confirm or deny this.

Transactions for Engine are not public or verifiable without trusting a single third party.

Engine doesn't remotely meet the criteria, attributes, or benefits of a blockchain. A blockchain is built on the lack of trust, typically called a trustless system. Engine is the complete opposite, Engine is completely dependent on a benevolent overseer to be honest and reliable.

So I ask you, is Engine a blockchain?

Which leaves me with one question...

How much money is on Hive Engine right now?

Answer, quite a bit.

While I am not happy about certain things about Engine, I really love how many opportunities it brings to Hive. It just goes to show how much SMTs can bring to Hive when a token system native to the blockchain and protected by consensus is. Pair that with native smart contracts and we will have something no one else has, free three second transactions with the ability to create your own contracts and tokens. I honestly believe this is the only way Hive can become what it has always dreamed of being.


Securely chat with me on Keybase

Why you should vote me as witness

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Sort:  

"While I am not happy about certain things about Engine, I really love how many opportunities it brings to Hive. It just goes to show how much SMTs can bring to Hive when a token system native to the blockchain and protected by consensus is. Pair that with native smart contracts and we will have something no one else has, free three second transactions with the ability to create your own contracts and tokens. I honestly believe this is the only way Hive can become what it has always dreamed of being."

I have the exact same sentiment. I appreciate what Hive-Engine has allowed us to do thusfar and it has really shown the value that can be built here. That being said, Hive-Engine has shown that they either don't have the resources, knowledge or interest (probably a mix of the 3) to deliver on a truly decentralized and robust second layer. I hope to see @blocktrades and the other groups working on smart contract/second-layer solutions come out with something sooner than later.

The opportunity for Hive is massive. If what LEO has built can be replicated but on the first layer, I think Hive can actually thrive in the way people want it to.

To your points in this post about how fragile Hive-Engine is... this is exactly why I take daily snapshots of the exact balances of all LEO stakeholders. Hive-Engine could theoretically disappear at any moment and while the distribution systems/infrastructure would disappear alongside it, at least we would be able to have some downtime as a project and spin up a new LEO token elsewhere and airdrop the right amount of tokens back to everyone.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

The opportunity for Hive is massive. If what LEO has built can be replicated but on the first layer, I think Hive can actually thrive in the way people want it to.

I've been known to say many times

We need 100 Leos

image.png

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Agree!

You've been known to be right on more than one occasion. I hope the Hiveiverse listens to you 🙏🏽

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

This has been and still is my primary focus. The Speak network will live on Hive, I want it to be a Hive native token, IE running off RCs, or in some way bringing value back to the Hive ecosystem. I often use Leo as an example of what I mean by tokenized communities. That's originally what made me bullish on Steem and what I'm fighting tooth and nail for today.

It pleases me to know that not only Blocktrades but a handful of others that have the knowledge and resources (if they lack resources I've offered finical help to those capable) and progress is being made. Know that the IPFS backend for the Speak network is practically finished at the foundation, it's now time to create a tokenized system to empower this storage system. So now it's that time, it'll be built one way or another and it will be decentralized or we simply can't use it. I'm stubborn when I think I'm right, and I think Hive will go to another level once these tools are made available for people to tokenized their communities in both a decentralized and economically viable way. I want people to spin up communities + tokens for very cheap and rely on the fact they'll need RC's to back those tokens. it was the original SMT vision and what will bring a ton of organic demand for RCs, thus leading to bullish demand for Hive.

I take daily snapshots of the exact balances of all LEO stakeholders.

That's good to know, I'm glad you always have the stakeholders in mind. It's funny you mentioned this, I was thinking about it all day.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

LEO token hodlers are always the priority 🦁

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

This is very reassuring to hear!

The opportunity for Hive is massive. If what LEO has built can be replicated but on the first layer, I think Hive can actually thrive in the way people want it to.

For all his game playing, Ned was spot on with that one.

Sadly he never brought it to life.

Fortunately, there is a lot of code for BT and others to go through. The question is whether it is worth very much.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Question is whether first layer is an important enough metric for people to build tokenized communities on Hive. I think HE is good enough to bootstrap one, but LEO seems to be the only one who actually goes the extra mile. And I'm not really convinced that this will change with first layer tokens.

Loading...

All that money in there, that’s a risk too! If anything happens HIVE will damp! Sounds very risky! Yeah hive engine good prototype, now get smt done!

Because @jpbliberty's SUFB token (which gives a share of the payout from the Class Action lawsuit against Facebook & Google's crypto ad ban) is on Hive-Engine, I'm very interested in running my own Hive-Engine node connecting to my own copy of the blockchain on my Hive Witness node.

Do I need to have my own API node to do this?
Where can I find proper instructions to setting up a Hive Engine node?

Its not enough to say that people could run their own Hive-Engine node.

There needs to be sufficiently detailed instructions as to how to do it.

You don't need a Hive API node, but it is ideal.

You can read this about setting up your own node. I can't vouch for how up to date it is.

https://github.com/harpagon210/steemsmartcontracts-wiki/blob/master/How-to-setup-a-Steem-Smart-Contracts-node.md

My sentiments lay with Khal's. Whilst I don't think hive-engine is a blockchain, it surely has shown us what someone can do with Hive when they have the motivation to do so.

I'm a Hive purist, you know I am, all we need is someone interesting to see the value in this place and BOOM :)

I'm a Hive purist, you know I am, all we need is someone interesting to see the value in this place and BOOM :)

I think we have the innovators, creators, and know how to deliver that interesting with what is here now.

What is missing is the tools for the people who are looking to do that to achieve their end.

Hopefully that will be corrected soon.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

If I had the tools I'd make something brand new again - but I don't know how to code. So that sucks lol

It's mostly a game of resources. I have a broad roadmap laid out that will lay out the architecture over ~1 years time. Much of this stuff is inventing architecture that we shouldn't have to invent though. If Hive wants to be the hub of community tokenization, then the infrastructure should exist on Hive

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

@edicted... From the LIONs mouth!

Hive won't 10x like you say just because. Development is obviously a vital necessity. Here's a live in the flesh builder making the exact same claim.

Strange post 🤔 HEngine can be rebuilt at any time by anyone with a replay of the data in HIVE, anyone can have their own Hengine node and point to it, you have all the open source code on github...

For sure it's not perfect and it need to be seen as in progress state of a blockchain creation because there is still work to be done.

For my part, I am a bit sad that the implementation of a witness validation system (in which I had participated) stopped last year when JS arrived and we migrated to HIVE.

Where I come from, we call this "shooting at the ambulance", which means shooting at an easy target, and in this case I can do the same thing with our blockchain 🤣

  • Did the DPOS protect us from the JS hostile takeover? Nope
  • Can a person change an account balance? Yep => JS

I stop here because it was only for the example to conclude that for my part Hive is also in a in progress state so I don't see the point of shooting it when many talented people are working on it to make it better and I prefer a way where something constructive can come out of it 😉


@mintrawa: Witness FR - Gen X - Geek 🤓 Gamer 🎮 traveler ⛩️
Don't miss the Hive Power UP Day! more info here
Don't miss the #HiveFEST 2020! more info here

It just goes to show how much SMTs can bring to Hive when a token system native to the blockchain and protected by consensus is. Pair that with native smart contracts and we will have something no one else has, free three second transactions with the ability to create your own contracts and tokens.

Another 4 years away?

I'm still baffled that nobody has created a public bet about which will be delivered first:

  1. SMTs
  2. ETH2

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

We could do this bet on LeoCasino.

That's coming, right?

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Hahaha :)

3- Clean fusion energy

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

4-Quantum Computing

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

5-Colonising Mars

6-nano robots

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Raspberry Pi 5

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Windows Upgrade without bugs

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

RPi 5 is Probably the soonest of all.

7-Neuralink

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

8-Plasma powered rockets

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Mars Colonisation Looking much closer than many think. SpaceX's most recent test of Starship was a huge success. The huge explosion right at the last second not withstanding.

Musk could have it going unmanned to Mars within 4 years and manned with 8 years.

Huge amount of colonisation work done by Mars Society and others.

Clean Fusion - Not in our lifetime.

please Smts :D i like the horse i sit on

Human Cyborgs first

Ned Scott's platinum album

You win !!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Fuck, I'd hope not.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Is it decentralized? Not in the least.

Is is a blockchain? According to the definition you posted, it is not. However, this is not the first time we see that databases are called blockchain which brings up the question as stated here.

Is what IBM and JPM blockchain? They claim that it is but we have to wonder.

The question to me is can data be changed or is it immutable? If there is no transparency, how do we know about immutability?

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

According to the definition you posted, it is not. However, this is not the first time we see that databases are called blockchain which brings up the question as stated here.

relevant good laugh

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Well.. I mean technically it's a centralized string of javascript virtual machines running code encoded in base58. As far as I know it takes zero consideration of other HE nodes running so it's not technically a distributed ledger meaning it's not a true blockchain. It's a sidechain by definition of not actually being decentralized.

I do business with a number of communities that use it as their staple.. However the tokens on there are nothing more than JSON at the end of the day.. JSON running on a centralized database that we call Hive-Engine.

That's all we have right now sadly.
SMTs need to come asap!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

As I understand it, each token on Hive-Engine has one distributer, which doesn't sound particularly decentralised to me.

And we trust that those distributers aren't going to go evil, crazy or get kidnapped and something go very wrong with the token supply all of a sudden as a result!

So we have faith in individuals, maybe it's a religion rather than a blockchain?

Each token does in fact bring it's own form of centralization as well.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Oh lordly, you'd concluded it was already that centralised before thinking about the tokens!

Long way to go!

 2 months ago 

It is a blockchain, in a certain sense. But for the most important sense, it is not.

Compare this to something like Voice, which is (presumably) on a blockchain as well, but that blockchain is hidden and inaccessible to the public, from what I can tell.

If Engine were a private database with a public API, there would be almost no difference in how it operates, apart from the ability to query the database without needing permission.

Who runs a copy full of the Engine databases for doing queries? Very few of us. But it's an option.

Private exchanges usually run their databases without allowing public access to that database. So in that particular sense, Engine is a single step in the right direction.

Engine is really just an open database in the style of a blockchain. It can possibly move in the direction of a true blockchain. So that's nice.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Personally speaking, no. Hive-Engine is not a blockchain, nor is it decentralized.

The value it brings to the chain is great, though. We all use it daily in some way, shape or form, from tribes to games to NFT's. So in that sense I would like it to become decentralized and a blockchain.

One thing yabapmatt, aggy and crew may not understand. They can call it decentralized and a blockchain all they want, and it can even be these things. But if the common user doesn't think it's those things then functionally it's not those things to that person.

I do have to ask though, witnesses get paid to run nodes, Bitcoin miners get paid to mine blocks. What would someone running a Hive-Engine node get as compensation for computing power?

Transactions on Engine are not distributed across a network... Engine is not tamperproof.

Well, I see it differently. The transactions on Engine are directly the custom_jsons, where certain rules (public rules) are applied. And these jsons are distributed and cryptographically signed on Hive (or Steem).

Without a doubt, Engine is not decentralized.

Yes, I agree with you. This is the main issue of Engine. One could think that it is decentralized because it is just picking some transactions from the Hive blockchain (which is decentralized). This is true. However, it is not decentralized in terms of the number of nodes running Engine. And the reason for that is because only one user has the incentive to run a node: The creators of Engine (fees for creating smart contracts, tokens, etc). Apart of that there are no incentives to run a node. I'm mean, this is their business model, which is ok, but it was not designed to be decentralized.

Well, I see it differently. The transactions on Engine are directly the custom_jsons, where certain rules (public rules) are applied. And these jsons are distributed and cryptographically signed on Hive (or Steem).

No they are not, those are just deposit slips (an unofficial unauthorative request for a transaction), the transaction actually happens behind the scenes on the "side chain" in a mongo db. Anyone can make a custom json with any number of tokens regardless of balance.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

This is the reason I added: "where certain rules (public rules) are applied".
Sure, you can create wherever custom_json you want with any token regardless of the balance, and this will be a valid transaction on Hive. However, certain rules apply on Engine, and they are public rules, then that json will be rejected there.
This transaction is not broadcasted because there is no reason to do that, it is already on Hive.

In any case, I agree with you that Engine can not be considered a blockchain because there is only one node running it, there are no incentives to run more nodes, then it is centralized.

In any case, I agree with you that Engine can not be considered a blockchain because there is only one node running it, there are no incentives to run more nodes, then it is centralized.

There are no incentives to nodes on Hive either, at least RPC nodes (which is what Engine nodes are). There are incentives to run a witness node, but full nodes are much more expensive and difficult to maintain but there is zero incentive. Every full node on Hive is a blessing.

Yes, you are right, this is a problem. And in many cryptos, this is an issue as well.
The lower RPC nodes, the greater the risk, the less trust in the network because there are few providers to verify the data (unless you run a full node yourself).

I didn't like the idea of anyone modifying my data but I also quite like engine it has some shortcoming and this needs to be fixed

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Thank you for this post.
I have been screaming this same thing over and over and felt like no one else understood what i was saying.

Thank you so much for raising the awareness of this.

How much "money" has been spent on Dcity with people thinking it is safe on-chain?

All the transactions are on chain and theoretically a new server like Scotbot or a network of bots like it could be spun up and the transactions could be replayed to arrive at the correct state.

The "transactions" (custom json) on chain are like deposit slips at a bank. You can write you are depositing $10,000,000 but it doesn't mean jack if you don't have the balance.

In other words, you cannot trust any of the custom jsons on chain unless you play from block 0 and maintain a balance to validate each and every one for every transaction.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

In other words, you cannot trust any of the custom jsons on chain unless you play from block 0 and maintain a balance to validate each and every one for every transaction.

That's exactly what I wrote.

I wrote:

could be replayed to arrive at the correct state.

Yes, I just wanted to clarify to those reading the thread that the custom jsons in themselves are useless, this is important as the way it is described by Engine team suggests otherwise.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

If there were several instances of Scotbots owned by several different people that all had to come to an agreement on the next transaction generated by Scotbot then I wonder how much would that slow down the thing. Scotbot seems quite slow. If LeoFinance begin or Splinterlands or some other app begins to attract large numbers of users, then the lack of capacity could be a problem.

There is one scotbot for all tribes and it watches both Steem & Hive. It's also not well optimized from what I have seen.

Splinterlands does not depend on Scotbot, only tribes.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

There is one scotbot for all tribes

That's the problem.

and it watches both Steem & Hive.

Yes.

It's also not well optimized from what I have seen.

Splinterlands does not depend on Scotbot, only tribes.

Ok. But the Tribes use Scotbot to calculate rewards, powering up and powering down and stuff like that. Does Scotbot have any contracts available that any of the games make use of at this point?

"No." Comes to mind.

@themarkymark is there any reason the steem smts code will not use ( or parts of it)?

I know it's not fully tested, but it's close to ready right? I'm not sure the sidechain discussion is something like "reinvent the wheel" or not.

As far I know there are not good ruleset of what they should cost too, but with some work, it can be something to not?

IMO we don't need a perfect system, we need a working system. Would really appreciate your opinion on it

@themarkymark is there any reason the steem smts code will not use ( or parts of it)?

This has been brought up, there are certain flaws in the code that would require changing. I don't know them specifically as I wasn't part of the discussion but it has been reviewed and there are various options,

  • release SMT and hope for the best
  • rewrite some of SMT code to fix these issues
  • build SMT from scratch with proper business rules
  • build a side chain dedicated to tokens and/or smart contracts that is more native to Hive

I believe one of these options will be chosen and focused on when Hivemind optimization is finished.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Thank you, Marky.

Is it possible to run it on something like Hive engine (option 4) for tests and include it, if its works on mainchain?

Because I think users of the tech find in most cases more bugs or something that can be done better as developers.

No idea about how much work it would be :)

Possible yes, ideal no.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

What would be your favorite of the 4 options you mention?

Proof of concept is still valuable. Some hard lessons were learned along the way. Some failures. People learn from this; come out better prepared for the big show, if it's ever ready.

I concur.

I like hive engine really the only reason remaining for me to be here. However, we've opted to be a multi chain project i just think its too dangerous to have our entire system run on just hive engine. So its a good complimentary product but our investors feel alot better on us being multi chain.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

A side chain is always a bad idea.

Well i'm not sure what you mean by that. Doesn't leofinance do the wrapped leo thing and it's on ethereum? So the value of say a project like leofinance can be held in ethereum but it's run on hive. If i understand this correctly hive-engine is not rooted in the hive blockchain is it? So although i applaud the efforts of the hive and steem-engine team. I'm glad they took some intiative got something done with these second layer solutions. Seeing that had they not we'd not be here. Looks like smt's we got an unrealized promise every month till the point they just stopped talking about it at all.

However if it's a blockchain who's running the nodes? How many are there? If you become a multi million dollar product you wanna be leaving all to chance. So what i'm saying is that as an investor and being part of a project. I feel better if like if something went wrong with hive or steem engine. It doesn't mean the end for us. It may mean the end for you all. Is what i mean to say and thanks for your comment.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Engine lacks the most important ingredient to be considered a blockchain...a peer to peer network that validates each transaction. There is no incentive to run a node and there is no consensus algorithm to determine who writes the next block on the "sidechain".

That really is one of the key defining functions of a "blockchain".

I have read the post and if not all the comments. You guys have taken me down the rabbit hole. Am confused as fuck.

Can someone guide me out of this shit fuck?

So yeah. Blockchain.

Lol consider it like the story of the Bible.

Long ago it was even forbidden to know how to read unless a person was of certain rank/creed/status.

So back then: Bible not a Blockchain.

Fast forward to now... Many versions exist. Everyone in the world that can read can store that information in their head or even copy it and redistribute it.

So now: Bible like a Blockchain.

Hive Engine is not the people's Bible.
Under the control of a single entity.

If you're still confused..
Blame Jesus!
awkwardmomentsbible_hateeveryone.jpg

Engine is not tamperproof, at any time anyone on the Engine team with appropriate access can modify balances and transactions.

So one can run away with all that money a fine day if he wants ?

It isn't that simple, but there are areas of risk as there is not a large group of decentralized entities distributing the transactions.

Thank you for the info!

Hive engine is an excel sheet with some formulas. calling it a blockchain is a little far fetched

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

You just expressed my thoughts

Appealing article.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Please define decentralization and centralization because everything in this world seems to me are centrally controlled by whomever has the most money? And it matters not( MOOT... Surpreme courts word) what the people say!

Wow a lot of engagement.

Engine is not a blockchain, its something new they created that uses the hive blockchain to register all actions.

I bet on SMTs to come out at one point, then token swap lassecash to a SMT. So get your lassecash while its cheap as now!!

We are working on airdop 2, which basically is 1 million airdropped to around 1900 accounts that holds from 1000 lassecash power to 0.00000001 lassecash power.

Earth is light ! :)...

You're right. It's all a kind of centralized system built-on-top of Hive. None of the contract is enforced by the consensus rules because it is impossible to implement them on Hive. Hive is designed to be somewhat narrow in focus.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

빡큐다 이 썩고 개새야~!!!