Tribes - Are you Converted?
Tribes, tribes and more tribes. For a while my mindset was focused on the tokens behind them and what value they could create for the steem ecosystem. But it looks like I was focusing on the wrong thing!!!
Today I decided to browse #steemleo and #stemgeeks websites. As I was on my mobile phone and I dont have keychain on it (is there a mobile keychain version?) I couldn't log in. Pity really because I was rather surprised at how easy it was to find content to read. Had I logged in, I would have left comments and voted. I will have to check out #lifestyle website too. That could be a good one too if its curated well.
The truth be told @abh12345 has been banging on to me about tribes for a while. I guess he might be right about a few things every now and then. He told me it was 'getting back to being about content' and I was pleasantly surprised when I was looking today.
For curation this is for sure a good thing. Wrapped up with higher curation rewards with the soon to come HF, I can see my self becoming more active in the curation world! For this, at the moment, I am converted. Are you?
However
I find it hard to take off my business hat. There has been too many short lived projects here on steem. People tend to build things and they are not equipped to 'run a business'. When the masses dont arrive and work needs to be done outside of dev, how many of these tribes will die or just become like #steemit in terms of shit content burying the good??
I hope some of these tribes have long term vision and the skills and want to push things forward, because when it comes to steem, it's going to be a long term game.
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Not as converted as I should be that’s for sure, but I’m interested in converting in full, esp. when HF21 hits ..
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Some like it and some don't, but many tribes are moderated. You post shit or abuse your stake, and you are hidden and your stake has no impact.
I'm OK with this centralisation and feel the lack of it, 'leaving things to the community' has not worked well on Steem.
Moderating content will ensure that the solid tribes have solid content at the top, and at this point I'm far happier linking tribes to friends I know could provide value in that niche than I am presenting steemit.com.
This is the value that was supposed to come from Communities. They just took much longer than promised.
Yep. How many non-spammers does it take to make a 'Community'? There cant be more than a handful sporting any more than average numbers.
It is going to be hard since we hardly have any users on the entire platform. Share them off into communities and it is a ghost town.
We need users.
An oligarchical system that is steem -and with the said oligarchs having an IQ sub 90, an ego the size of texas, and the ideological naivety a teenager - will never attract the users envisioned.
All metrics, and the market, are screaming this.
The egotistical oligarchs refuse to listen.
( low IQ people tend to have hearing difficulties)
Holding onto power in a tiny pool is a higher priority.
Steem is flawed - and anyone who can do anything, doesn't want to do anything.(did I mention low IQ?)
Care to counter the down votes on my latest blog? lmao.
Thought not.
(did I mention low IQ's?, I forget)
https://steemit.com/blog/@lucylin/this-is-becoming-too-hilarious
users are coming
ppl cant wait to have their money stolen by you
bad mach lear business
Wah iz vary match wad wizness
Zippty Soopty Loopa Deetle Doos!
bygit drm es unk
acklee wa bin shoolo hanked frot slegger, uhhh ba no noony in tha bungh bungh rump!!
Yaaaaahseee!!
kgnidgr @themarkymark frt gnuga tr egfr
on erom prac , owwiut
Hahahahahaha
my fear as well.
Content creators are put off.
WERE put off at the entire discussion, during proposals, particularly being told they are mooching and not worth it.
We as a community need to do better during the process of being even handed across all demographics.
we need loads of users with a different expectation than before!
A centralised app running on a decentralised blockchain. Seems a bit counter-intuitive and pointless to me.
Yeah, opinions differ. I just look at the mess the high stakeholders have made not acting in the networks best interests, and I like these experiments that are taking place.
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Glad to see that you’ve been pushed over to the dark side
#wewillburytheshituntilitsallrosesandsunshine ;)
I so love that tag.......#wewillburytheshituntilitsallrosesandsunshine
I read that the new Steem Wallet app has a way to get Keychain on mobile. @roelandp I think
https://partiko.app/@roelandp/introducing-steemwallet-app-v2-many-enhancements-including-a-steemkeychain-supporting-dapp-browser?referrer=newageinv
awesome - thank you so much for the link. I am sure gonna try this out
Sorry, I just don't see the value-add. Maybe I don't "get it" but all I see are trade-offs with centralisation, moderation powers and potential isolation/silo-ing from having a separate site. I understand that a lot of people would be excited by their group "having their own token" but really, is that anything more than emotional appeal? Tribalism as a concept is not appealing nor productive to my eye.
For me the tribalism allows us to more easily find the content we're interested in, and community members with like interests to engage with. Front ends like Steemit, Partiko and others will still be there for the spammers and vote buyers, but they won't be clogging up the trending pages of the tribe sites.
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Can't you just get your group to use a tag to find their content?
Any tribe/token that gets big enough will attract spammers and vote buyers in due course anyway.
Difference is that they can be completely muted (no rewards whatsoever) and have their influence null on the tribes.
Most tribes have antiabuse accounts that can nuke almost everything that pays out in their tokens.
Some people getting hammered by random flags can still earn stuff. It's too bad the current tribe tokens aren't worth that much right now.
Unless there is decentralised governance on the "anti-abuse" accounts then Tribes is just another centralised solution that doesn't really need to be on a blockchain. May as well fire up phpBB with a mySQL backend for your community.
And what are the details of this “decentralised governance”? Or is this just a buzz word people toss around.
Points of centralisation will always exist.
Points of centralisation only exist if people remain ignorant of the ways and means to eliminate them, or they are unmotivated to then do so.
I’m not interested in philosophy. I want to know the details.
Until then, this conversation is going nowhere. Good day.
It's not philosophy. You either know what it is or you don't. I'm not writing an essay here to educate or convince you.
I agree with your final sentence. Cheers.
Lol okay. Whatever you say.
I can't express it any better than @enforcer48 has here
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ignore the token. ignore the money. now think about the content. it does have the potential to see better content rise to the top of these sites - but it still lacks community functionality. Moderation plays a key role in running a good community, but I would rather call it facilitating that moderating :-)
When the hype started, I was crazy about them. But when I saw the price of all those tokens going so fast down and only in about a month or two, I worried. Then I saw steemit inc announcing the smts and that we will have them soon. So, I thought, most people will create after in the smt's and tokens in these tribes will keep going down. I've spend about 500 steem to became an orca in sportstalk tribe, now the value of what I'm staking went 3 times lower. I earned some, but still as an investor, when you see the value of your staked money reducing that fast, you will have bad feeling anyway.
That's my honest opinion about tribes now and that's why I'm not that excited about them anymore, I'm unstaking in all of them expect sports tribe, just because I'm staking in it that much. I recovered of course about %50 of tokens and sold them into steem, but it gave me only about 20 - 30 % back of my steem invested and it giving less and less. Maybe it will take me about 6 months or more to get my 500 steem back with keeping that stake there.
Smt's may make the situation even worse. I'm not afraid, I just feel that and I see the whole picture now. But, it's ok, that was a lesson for me and I will be very careful to invest in smt's or not invest in them at all.
I also worry about how SMTs/communities will impact steem-engine tokens/tribes. I wouldn't be surprised to see the more successful tribes create an equivalent SMT-based community and then airdrop to steem-engine token holders. That's what I'm hoping, at least. ;)
I don't think they will do that after all the work done with tribes. They will have to choose, or to stay with tribes and keep improving them, or to create in smt's again. I think the rules of smt's will not be that easy as well. They may have more requirements and since they are built by steemit, so they will set the rules they like for them.
interesting, but thats were I made the mistake too, thinking about the token and possible value. Leave the tokens out of it and the money out of it and think about the content - It does make content easier to find for sure
The thing that we could care about the tags even before, without having those tribes. If we just curate the right tag always, will we need them. Because even them having those front ends, only if their tag will be used, the content will apear there. It's the case of the most of them.
I like for example the recently created tribe where they add even an other tag to make posts apear. It's called tunes and when we use the tag #music such content also apaer there but not only #tunes content. Others mostly support only their tag more. For example it will be good if all the posts with #investing tag will apear in steemleo. Anyway those are my two cents. I wish them all good luck.
you are very right in what you say, tags could have worked, but you do know after 7 days stuff is not searchable in tags...its the best of a bad situation really
The app has been tested thoroughly with Steem interfaces such as:
whoot, awesome - fantastic share
I think I will avoid that one. I don't want to be glued to the drama 24/7! lol
There's going to be more failures than successes. Like in the business world. The cream will rise to the top.
I started out like you, then I fed into the craze, now do have some doubts but I'm still going in,risking it, coz who knows.
@roelandp released steemwallet v2 a few days ago. I been using it since yesterday and loving the experience so far. Itv lags sometimes but still....
@roelandp is getting a lot of mentions, I really need to check this out
The only think that's lagging is me, nice few mentions here @roelandp 😁 nice work, I gotta try it out
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hey!! whats lagging? the startpage?
In general sometimes it takes a few seconds to be responsive
To be honest I think that tribes are more of a proof of concept that you can run your site and business on steem and will transform into something else over time. I agree that most of them will fail but what I do see is a collection of ideas, users and development that can all be used for the greater good of the ones that do survive.
I think once these communities have RC delegation and they can onboard by themselves should look to focus on external user acquisition and exclusive retaining of content.
I'd also like to see some tribes be brave enough to say we're a closed community for example content on this platform is only for this platform. If I use #steemleo I shouldn't be able to #palnet because I'm committing to a certain network.
Sure right now users are scarce so we letting it fly but in future, I think tribes that survive will need more USPs that continue to differentiate themselves not just the fact that they're a themed coin.
I think we will see SMT's and SCOTs combined in interesting ways once it is released. I think Side chains make for a great way to categorize data and allow for certain products to be improved by speaking between the two chains. These tools are going to open up many more use cases over time and I'm actually waiting to integrate it into some ideas I have I just don't think the product is ready yet so I'll wait it out for now.
I think any of the tribes would be foolish to attempt to make themselves a closed community. They might as well be on a separate website and off the blockchain. The beauty of the tribes is that those who want to find the specialized content can go directly to that frontend to find it. Those would who like to follow the content but have other interests can do that as well by following the tag on the general frontends like steemit.com or steempeak. The tribe gets the benefit of both types of audience while the content creators expand their options for rewards by stacking tokens.
The tribe leadership will need to be creative in developing use cases for their tokens to create value and demand. It's one platform (Steem) with identified groups (tribes) presenting relevant content to their audience. New and interesting ways of managing content and will open up a world of ideas to come.
Have you tried SteemWallet by @roelandp? He included a mirror code of Steem keychain in his wallet.
a few people have mentioned it, im going to give it a try
I am really enjoying the tribes. Most exciting addition to Steem since I joined over 2 years ago. I am curious how everything will fit together when Steemit communities and SMTs arrive.
im curious too, I guess we gotta stick around to find out
My biggest fear/worry, is that I am maxed out on Curation.
I already curate as much as my RC's and VP allow. I don't see how I can make up for the loss on my content creation.
Other than finding new avenues to use my energy.
many people are setting up different accounts to curate different tribes
Seems like I would be spreading my VP out and diluting it. Why not keep it together?
They also want to earn more rewards, hence multiple accounts.
I don't understand how splitting an account holder's SP can bring in larger rewards? or more rewards?
One larger account combined SP, will bring in more than two smaller accounts.
The alts just need a little SP. The stakes are the tribe tokens.
Ahhhhh.... I see. betting on tribes.
Depending on which ones catch on and develop some sort of value.
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So – here's my problem with Tribes.
We both know that I am a big proponent of self-governing communities online. I've advocated for the construct, I've pointed out repeatedly why they're useful, I said outright that the absence of the ability for self organizing and self-governing communities is one of the design failures that have been weighing heavily on the Steem blockchain since its inception. I've been very vocal.
And, insofar as they represent a new way to Lynn's the content going to the blockchain so that you can explore and experience people and topics that are interesting to you, they seem to be at least marginally useful.
But here's the problem, and it's a surprising one.
Those goddamn tokens.
The goddamn sub-token economy make them a nightmare to talk about, work with, or set up.
Let's look at this when I put on my Content Creator Hat and take off my Software Engineer Hat.
I am a content creator. I write things. I like to write things, and as a result or as a cause, I like to read things which interest me. I want to write things for an audience who also wants to read the stuff that I produce. To that end, I'd like to create some sort of organizational interface which lets me establish something like that on the Steem blockchain.
So what do I have to do?
Well, the first thing you do is probably Google around and see what you have to do to do thing. And one of the first things that you will see that actually has a description of any kind of process is @aggroed 's post from a couple of months ago.
https://steempeak.com/steem-engine/@aggroed/a-beginners-guide-to-starting-your-own-tribe
Well, at least he has a reasonably engaging writing style which won't make your eyes bleed as we go through.
And right up front, look at what we've got:
Now, I generally attempt to avoid swearing in the context of this blockchain because it's just too easy, but that single line? There's only one answer.
"What the fuck?"
You go on to read that you're going to need to invest more money as you go for various reasons, but not the least being that every single user costs you as the Tribe creator, you need a big website (comparatively) which implies hosting, you absolutely have to create your own token and find the underlying RC interaction, you have to take on the minutia of setting up your own token and decide what the supply is and what the inflation rate is and how much of it goes to founders and how much of it gets spread to the community and…
And I'm just a guy with an idea, maybe who has an idea that other people would like to share, I'm not someone rolling around with $2000 I want to drop on what reads like the world's worst get-rich-quick scheme.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is fucking insanity.
Why in the world would anyone think such a thing would be able to compete at any kind of level with free community building platforms like subereddits on Reddit, Groups on MeWe, Pages on Facebook – or even an extremely lightweight, shared blogging platform that you could build from scratch with almost no technical information or knowledge required based around a shared GitHub deposit?
It is, and I repeat myself, fucking insanity. It's almost like somebody went out and decided on the worst possible solution they could implement and dragged it in kicking and screaming.
The ongoing expense necessary to have one of these Tribes means that every single person who believes they want to create a community of shared content has to put the idea that that community needs to make money in the greater, broader Steem blockchain up front. Without question, without hesitation. Because of it doesn't, you don't have a community – and on top of that, all of the investment that you put into it up to that point is wasted.
You might get the impression that I have some strong feelings about this design. You would be correct.
If this architecture was wrapped up into the mainline interaction with the Steem blockchain, I would be reasonably happy about it. But it aggregates all of this crap cryptocurrency bullshit up front with systems that should be natural interactions.
Why does it cost more to effectively create what is a bot which posts or re-shares content from the blockchain based on certain criteria than it does to just by an account and set up a bot to be a single point of contact that can be followed by interested parties and act as a community nexus? Because it's not about the content and it never was about the content, it's about the money and trying to make money in a valueless process.
As a creator, the only thing in Tribes for me is maybe being able to reach someone who is interested in the content I'm creating – if the Tribe already exists to cater to that community that someone else is paying for. If I want to create a community interface that might draw people who are interested to my work, there is absolutely no margin in doing so.
Oh, and by the way, this is about to get a lot worse under hard fork 21.
Frankly, I don't have $2000 to throw at a money hole. I'm a creator, not an investor. I don't have $500 to throw at a money hole. I don't have $50 to throw at a money hole. I'm one of those crazy, socially unacceptable bastards who actually need to take the money that I earn out of the system to buy things that I need. I'm reliably informed that makes me an unbeliever, a heretic, and not a true supporter of the community – despite how much content I might actually create that other people can consume, enjoy, and get more reward from curating than I did for creating it.
I may only be slightly bits of bitter about that.
So yeah, I am not excited about Tribes. I think it actively subverts, in the long term, community building activity and puts token manipulating ability right up front as the most important thing going on with it.
I am with you on the tokens. Man I just dont get it. As a content business owner, i dont see the value in having a token, unless I were to call it shitforexcel. As a business owner, I don't mind making an investment to grow more and add more value, but I dont see my own token as value added in any way.
See, that underlying idea is part of why SCOT Tribes frustrate me so much. If they were simply built and based around STEEM, with no need to set up any kind of fancy redistribution or inflation mechanics, they might have some kind of use. As it stands, they have an expiration date stamped right on the cover – and that's terrible for a community.
The tokens are there to suck in the gamblers. That is the only reason I can really see for them. It is 1 More Way to pull fiscal value out of the crypto-cultists by giving them one more money sink to cross promote with.
I know that is a very cynical approach to the system, but you can only watch this sort of thing happen so many times before cynicism is the sensible response.
Interesting title, Steemit is almost like a religion to some, and the Tribes are now an extension of that. I wonder if it is actually just the religion of money? Sad state of affairs when the mind of the weak is steered into love of money over love of life, others and principles.