Discussions continued. RE: Akiroq and Logiczombie

Hello @futuremind, how are you doing? I am working when reading your post. It seems very interesting to discuss about lies. In my opinion if someone has lied once, then that person must continue to lie to cover up his lies? I myself can not distinguish between people who lie or not. In Indonesian customs, a woman often has to pretend to like something for the sake of politeness even if it is against her conscience. Enjoy your day, my friend.

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Hi, @futuremind!

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The very first thing that pops out at me, is how embedded and acceptable it is to LIE, when the internal response is opposite the outward response. Notice how there is absolutely no acknowledgment that this is wrong.

I was wondering if you were going to comment on that.

To me, the video was cast (with a specific set of characters, not an accurate representative of veterans), it definitely had an agenda(to paint a different picture that reality), and it was edited(again to reflect a different reality).

Not only were the characters in the video lying. The video itself was a lie.

In this video, not only is lying acceptable, it is condoned by peers through agreement and laughter. In other words, the cast of characters is promoting this behaviour in each other.

And, I estimate at least one person will watch the video, see our comments about it, and say something to the effect of: "Lighten up, it was just a joke". Further highlighting this problem in our society/world.

When the truth is uncomfortable, that does not mean it is OK to cover it with a lie or humour. Both are avoidance techniques and fail to deal with the actual issue.

What happens when we fail to address problems (or worse even speak about them)? Well, naturally the problems will compound.

They won't as we hope magically go away.

That's not real life.

What happens when we use lies? We hide the truth. People will not know the truth, which in this case, is the absolute horror of war.

What happens when we use humor? We lessen the seriousness of whatever is being talked about. And, we build an association 1+2=funny, instead of 1+2=a serious problem.

When we look at things in this manner, we can more readily understand the true motive and intent of this video.

Was it to answer the actual question posed?

No. It was to paint being in the service/going to war as one big social/fun fest where nothing really matters.

It is diverting attention away from the horror of war, the seriousness of the situation.

Furthermore, it is deflecting responsibility for what happens to veterans after they leave the service.

If there appears to be no problem, if it is all fun and games, then what really is there to worry about? Nothing, right?

I personally was disgusted by this video because of:
-the horrors of war
-the depersonalization/dehumanization that occurs in the us versus them mentality
-the taking of lives/loss of human life
-the tremendous psychological and emotional suffering that occurs afterward to all the victims (veterans and the people they fought against)
-the impacts of that suffering on others (families, friends, social relationships, function, etc.)

This is a serious problem.

Not for one single second is any of that a laughing matter.

I propose the question then, who is actually validating in this sense?

Peers are validating peers into corrupting their ethics and morals.

Just think about that!

Wow.

If I am uncomfortable, do not like the statement, for whatever reason(s), and I mold my response to one which is geared towards appeasement, and not the truth, I see the potential for negative impact on both the person lying, as well as the person receiving the lie, because it does not give the receiver good/productive information to work with in the future, and the person lying may encumber some serious negative self talk/feelings if they feel negative/guilty about molding the response in a dishonest way.

Yes, and people do this all the time.

They think they are shielding people from a truth, when in fact, they are harming people with a lie.

The questions that come up for me are:
-Why do we need to appease others?
-Are we all that fragile?
-Can we not like someone who tells us the truth? (In other words, does telling the truth damage relationships?)

I mean really, the questions are endless. Why is this practiced? Why is this socially acceptable?

How on earth do people reconcile this type of behaviour?

The societal implications of this is entirely, another conversation.

Yes, it certainly is and it's a serious conversation because this problem is an epidemic in our society. I see it all around us.

Since I feel that I am in tune with reading body language very well, how I feel in these moments is entirely based on the person who is conveying this message to me. And my response is oftentimes dictated by my intuitive conclusion, which of course is a fallacy in thinking that I am working on, even though I feel I'm very well grounded in my reasoning.

The problem here is that other people don't think the way we do. They also don't react the way we do. We can try predict their thoughts and their reactions, but we are limited to our own understandings and perspectives. There is a high chance for error.

You could be wrong about reading their body language(there is a chance). You may tailor a response that you think will be right for them(predicting their reaction). But, here there is also a chance that you will have made an error in prediction.

We can try, but it won't be completely accurate, all of the time.

I try to always remember that other people don't think the way I think. For me, that is a challenge at times.

If I can recognize that I am not always consistent with my response/reaction, then I must admit that I am jeopardizing my integrity, my morals, based on fear. Fear that the response will not be one that I like, based on a conclusion that I have molded in my mind, that I have little evidence to prove is accurate. This type of thinking seems to be common with veterans in my experience, and aside from dishonest response, I can recognize it as avoidance. Not avoidance of the topic, but avoidance of confrontation/disagreement, whereas, the veteran feels they would be arguing/debating with someone who has no idea what they are talking about, because they haven't experienced it.

Yes, exactly. What if you say the wrong thing? What if that leads to conflict?

When you had PTSD to the mix, the anxiety, discomfort is very very real. People who have just come out of a traumatic situation are likely not going to want any further confrontation.

And war is, it is traumatic! No one can tell me that the taking of human lives is not traumatic. How could it possibly not be?

Yes, the problem is further compounded by the fact that two people, with completely different experience, are trying to talk about a topic they have no common ground on.

The person speaking (unless also a veteran) will likely have no idea what the experience of the veteran was. The veteran will most likely be cognizant of this.

So, avoidance comes into play.

Are they speaking because they care, or is it lip service? How much truth do people want? How much truth can they stomach? How much truth can they live with?

And, even if they were given the truth, would they do anything about it?

If the person stating this is genuine, then my response is going to be genuine. If I feel the person stating it is doing so as a "cookie cutter", conformity based thing, with no emotion, I just say "thanks" and leave it at that.. Is it dishonest, or just a willingness to not further address the topic?

I personally think this is quite reasonable given the dynamics. This seems like a very reasonable approach.

"I don't feel society really appreciates it."

This certainly is an answer that I would imagine most people do not expect.

I am curious how many people will actually do anything with the information you provide.

Because, as we can see how terribly veterans are dealt with post-war.

I don't really see any big changes happening. It seems like an ongoing problem.

I would not rather have someone say "I can't imagine what you've been through."

I found this interesting, because as you probably already know, I would be more likely to say this than to thank you for your service.

I personally feel this to be more truthful about how I feel.

Because I feel that I am going to know if they are genuine or not. In this case, I really don't care what they say, I am reading the person, not the statement..

Yes, again, it is not always the words that matter but rather the intent behind those words.

So true and so important.

The rate of homelessness and addiction with veterans is also exceedingly high, and continues as a growing problem. I can't tell you how many young men and women go into the service with a host of issues to begin with.

It's terrible. It's unforgiveable.

And yet, we see how people treat the homeless. Some people will go so far as to yell at them or spit at them.

If only they stopped to think about the human beneath. That homeless person is still a person. They're still a human being. They still matter.

I don't think most 18 year old's actually want to join a mass murder club, but things like "patriotism" and "glorification" of military life is a great tool to confuse and cover up the harsh truth. Couple the societal manipulation with kids coming out of broken households, and a government which turns a blind eye to obvious damaged children, because they are nothing more than a pawn in the murder machine, and it's not surprising to me to see this problem getting exponentially worse for the veterans when they are discharged.

Well, in all brutal honesty, that killing machine needs to be fueled somehow if it is to continue.

The very very sad thing is that many people are unaware of what they are actually fighting for.

Just because it quacks like a duck, doesn't necessarily mean it is a duck.

I don't like to mix politics in with psychology, but in this case, it's hard to not look at the political/societal implications of how veterans feel, in culmination of how they respond to these "socially acceptable" blanket statements which are made to help them feel better, or understood in the moment. Someone who's been forced to live a hyper-vigilant life will see right through this..

How can someone feel understood, when they themselves are unable to reconcile what happened to them?

How would that even work?

In all honesty, are a few words going to make a veteran feel better about what they have been through?

Let's be real here.

I highly doubt it.

``And what are the implications of not speaking up!?```

Quite simply, if no one speaks the truth, the truth remains hidden.

People who don't know, won't know.

No problems can be solved in this way.

The vet might say things to him/herself like:"Why didn't I just say how I really felt, why do I always appease these people, I feel so shitty about the fact that so many don't understand, ect ect.." Self-defeating, self-degrading, depressing, and really just negative negative negative.. That is what the veteran who doesn't speak his/her mind might think/feel in the moment.

Yes, they are caught in a negative cycle, propagated by the society they live in.

How much choice do they really have in the first place to say anything?

I mean, think about that.

It's more sociably acceptable to lie in this situation than to tell the truth. Just look at the example video!

The person receiving the response: If they are not adept at reading body language, and cannot see the uncomfortable feelings the veteran is experiencing, they will likely feel validated in their cookie cutter, well ground, neuro-typically-plastic way of being, and just keep repeating this in the future.

Yes, how convenient.

Now no one has to assume responsibility. Now no one is accountable.

How tidy.

Let's send my son/daughter into the killing machine.

People will thank them for their service.

Oh, won't that be nice.

I can be so proud then...

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Hello @futuremind, thank you for sharing this creative work! We just stopped by to say that you've been upvoted by the @creativecrypto magazine. The Creative Crypto is all about art on the blockchain and learning from creatives like you. Looking forward to crossing paths again soon. Steem on!