Support Steem.DAO: Return Proposal

in #steemdao2 years ago

Steem.DAO is set as 100% beneficiary of this post.
It means that all author rewards (if any) will go to @steem.dao account at the payout time.
In other words, your votes for this post is an additional support for Steem.DAO a.k.a. Steem Proposal System.
Then, Steem.DAO will continuously support projects voted by the community.

But what if you are undecided which of the proposals should get Steem.DAO funding or what if you think that none of them are currently good enough?

Return Proposal

This post is also a description for my upcoming Steem.DAO proposal which is a Return Proposal.
The aim of Return Proposal is to prevent proposals with little to no approval from receiving funding.
Think of it like:

I think that any proposal, that has less approval than Return Proposal I vote for, shouldn’t receive funding from Steem.DAO.

Bonus: New fancy promo video by @gtg

ELI5 (Explain Like I'm Five)

  • Hi, I’m @steem.dao. In the next hour I’ll have 1000 SBD to fund projects and make Steem even greater again.
  • Hi, I’m @alice. My proposal Improve steem documentation is the most voted proposal, send 20 SBD to @alice.
  • Hi, I’m @bob. My proposal Steem commercial on CNN is a second most voted proposal, send 300 SBD to @cnn.commercial.
  • Hi, I’m @a.hole. My proposal blah is the fourth most voted proposal, send 10000 SBD or what’s left to @a.hole.
  • Hi, I’m @gtg. My proposal Return Proposal is the third most voted proposal, send 1000000 SBD or what’s left back to @steem.dao.

In the next hour @steem.dao sends:

  • 20 SBD to @alice
  • 300 SBD to @cnn.commercial
  • 680 SBD back to self.

HF21 Early days

In the early days, just after the new rules of HardFork 21 are set in place, and before people get used to new features, it is important to keep potential bad actors from receiving funding from Steem.DAO. Please vote for my Return Proposal as soon as you can, and then, when the dust settles, do your own research and adjust your proposal votes accordingly.

Steem Proposal System release notes (source: GitHub)

The Steem Proposal System (SPS) is an on chain Decentralized Autonomous Organization (DAO) that allows users to submit proposals for funding and vote on which proposals should be funded. The SPS is funded by means of inflation and donations. SBD (and only SBD) can be sent to the account @steem.dao. Additionally anyone can make donations by setting the account as a comment reward beneficiary.

Warning: There is no mechanism for refund from the @steem.dao. Non SBD transfers will be rejected, but any SBD donated cannot be refunded.

The inflation budget has been changed to fund the SPS. The content rewards are being reduced from 75% of the budget to 65% to give 10% of the inflation budget to the SPS. The actual inflation schedule has not changed at all. The inflation schedule continues as planned. As of block 34 million, inflation was at 8.42% and will continue to narrow 0.01% every 250k blocks until it reaches a rate of 0.95%

One one-hundredth of the balance of the @steem.dao account will be paid out every day in one hour intervals in order of approval. It is strongly recommended that the community creates and maintains refund proposal(s) to prevent proposals with little to no approval from receiving funding.

There are three new operations for interacting with the SPS.

struct create_proposal_operation : public base_operation
   account_name_type creator;
   account_name_type receiver;

   time_point_sec start_date;
   time_point_sec end_date;

   asset daily_pay;

   string subject;
   string permlink;


struct update_proposal_votes_operation : public base_operation
   account_name_type voter;

   flat_set_ex< int64_t > proposal_ids;

   bool approve = false;

struct remove_proposal_operation : public base_operation
   account_name_type proposal_owner;

   flat_set_ex< int64_t > proposal_ids;

When a proposal is created, a post must be specified that is linked to the proposal. It will be @creator/permlink. All proposal creators should use that post to keep their proposal up to date so that stake-holders can easily review and approve the proposal. There is a 10 SBD fee that must be paid in order to create a proposal. The fee is paid in to the SPS. A proposal can, at most, receive daily_pay per day, but if the proposal is not paid for a round either from losing approval votes or the budget not being able to cover the proposals costs, the lost pay will not be made up. Proposals are not owed anything by the blockchain until they are actually paid.

Proposal IDs are generated by the blockchain and are a global unique identifier of the proposal. The ID is returned with the proposal on all SPS API calls. Because the proposal ID is generated by the blockchain, it is strongly encouraged to use the transaction status API to wait for the transaction creating the proposal to become irreversible before approving it or else the proposal ID may change and the approval will be for the wrong proposal.

The following API calls have been added to support accessing proposal information. database_api.list_proposals, database_api.find_proposals, database_api.list_proposal_votes.

If you believe I can be of value to Steem, please vote for me (gtg) as a witness on Steemit's Witnesses List or set (gtg) as a proxy that will vote for witnesses for you.
Your vote does matter!
You can contact me directly on, as Gandalf

Steem On


So if return proposal is the highest voted, it means none of the current proposals will be funded?
How long will proposals stay active, to have enough time to gather the votes necessary? Only 7 days?

Author of proposal defines that period, so it's up to creator.
It's not like voting for posts so 7 days limit doesn't apply.
It's more like voting for witnesses. It will be much easier to grasp it once it's online :-)

I think it is going to be important for large stakeholders to be able to make a partial weighted vote (via a code enhancement/future fork). Currently the only way to vote proposals up and down is with the boolean approve. But this means that when a large stakeholder changes a vote it may have unintended consequences (for example moving a refund proposal above other higher "good" proposals in addition to the one intended to be cut off), or alternately not vote. Splitting stake allows for more granularity, but splitting stake should not be needed and it is generally unintended that splitting conveys an advantage.

Could we vote conditionally, say up to a certain level. Eg. "I support this proposal up to the point of 25 GV voting for it"?

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Imagine when we have proposals for our proposals,and yes we should turtle or fractalit all teh way down! this is the beginning of a great new steem, no pun intended. i just saw this proposal section on steempeak today, i am really excited. and i know so many steemians will FOMO when they see PROPOSALS? Imagine we can vote on a proposal with HALF our Mvests.... or delegate proposal power lol hehe

As currently implemented it is only yes or no (true or false in the api). All sorts of improvement proposals are possible but I think changing the true-or-false boolean to a percentage gets us most of the way there.

I think there are some bugs regarding proposal voting related to the Return Proposal. See this post for details.

Can't see anything suspicious there.
I myself voted for Return Proposal and @roelandp's T-R-F.
That's a valid way of voting.

Yes, it is a valid way of voting if you choose it.
But its happening automatically to every vote for every other proposal!

No, it's not happening automatically, you are looking at index, not value. :-)

Is Steemit going to add the ability to create SPS proposals to their front end from day one? Or will it be weeks before any non-techie can create a proposal?

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 2 years ago (edited)

It seems that there's still no interface provided by Steemit, but SteemPeak team has one here:

There's also by @dmitrydao but at this moment it is still pointing at TestNet.

Thanks. This seems to be the only option to actually create a proposal at the moment.

try also this one from steemconnect. Just change the parameters in the url.

Got one for voting? I think steemconnect needs something to handle a proposal ID of 0 possibly...

Keychain also needs to update to latest steemjs before proposal voting can happen too, from what I've gathered. (And can you add it to your nice site when that happens :) )

Example call:

steem_keychain.requestBroadcast('eonwarped', [['update_proposal_votes', { voter: 'eonwarped', proposal_ids: [0], approve: true}]], 'Active', function(response) {
        console.log('main js response - broadcast');

Wait was this 3 days ago before steempeak added the proposal button? Is this not fully up yet? looks great! i almost submitted a proposal for @phonedata project just need 10 SBD :)

I hope Steempeak will be faster..

But look at this:

In BitShares we use the same mechanics to prevent this. good idea!

It means that all author rewards (if any) will go to @steem.dao account at the payout time.

So who has the private keys for that account?


At the time of HardFork:

            modify( *account_auth, [&]( account_authority_object& auth )
               auth.owner.weight_threshold = 1;

      = 1;

               auth.posting.weight_threshold = 1;

nobody will have access to steem.dao. That's where A in DAO comes from: Autonomous.

Does this mean that the refund goes back into the development pool for future distribution, or is it burnt?

Above code doesn't mean anything like that. Take a look at ELI5 section. What this proposal gets is sent back to Steem.DAO for future allocations. Over and over again if higher voted proposal wouldn't use all funds.

Ok, thanks. I have very little experience with this side of it yet, but hoping that the "learn by doing" process gets me up to speed... less than 24 hours to start the learning :)

The payouts will be very, very small at first so we will have time to learn by doing. The funding rate is about 2000 SBD per day and only 1/100 of the treasury is paid out per day so total daily payouts will start at (approximately) 20 SBD, 40 SBD, 60 SBD, etc.

It will be some time before they ramp up to anything significant.

Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure how the fund fills. Have you much experience with the potential outcomes or, is this going to be an experiment in innovation for us all?

I don't have experience with it. People who have worked with Bitshares would be the best resource as that system is very similar. Or as you say we learn together.

Hot sign link for voting the proposal:

Thanks @asgarth for the pointer there. Figured I share it here too.

Burn and return proposals should be permanent?
None of the above shouldn't be handicapped by someone having to take the time and pay the 10sbd?

This way such return proposal can be like any other without over-complicating code itself. Also it allows other return proposals to be defined later on to fine-tune funding management.


There can be more than one. For example, if stakeholders feel the entire DAO budget is too large they can create a burn proposal which burns half and vote it to the very top. The remaining half will flow down through the others proposals, effectively cutting the total budget. Or similarly if stakeholders feel that too much is being paid out now but perhaps should be saved in the treasury for later, a return proposal for part of the budget can be voted to the very top.

There are other combinations possible.

Each 24 hour period?

Payouts are every hour. 1/2400 of the pool is paid out.

So, each day is 1/100th of the pool?

We vote each proposal just once?
How long do they persist?

You can change your votes whenever you want. If a live proposal is high enough in the rankings during the hourly payout, it gets funded, if it drops down, funding is cut off. Like witnesses.

live proposal

How long do they live?

That's part of the proposal, and I don't know if there is a hard limit. Personally I think this is actually a weakness in the system. There is a 10 SBD fee per proposal to reduce spam, but very long-lived proposals constitute a form of spam as well, and the fee should probably be per-month or something.

In practice I guess UIs will have to prioritize newer/active proposals in some manner. I don't know how that is going to work out.

How big are these proposal windows going to be - do you know?

Thanks for taking initiative against possible bad actors on our DAO!

You can make a proposal "Midnight party" just before the midnight, vote for it immediately, and on midnight get a payout if there's enough votes.

Sounds like this will be @anomadsoul at SteemFest4 :D

Are votes just calculated once per day?


a proposal window can be as large as years, On the testnet I managed to make a proposal that stopped in 2040

And who is going to decide the length of these windows? Just curious what the 'speed' will be with which we have to vote on proposals. I'm assuming here that there will be one window, then proposals, then voting on proposals, then closing of window, then start of next window. Or will there be 'parallel'/multiple windows open at the same time instead?

There is continuous voting. If a proposal loses votes (or other competing proposals gain votes) then its funding may be cut off.

Hi, I’m @alice. My proposal Improve steem documentation is the most voted proposal, send 20 SBD to @alice.

How is "most voted" determined? Is it by number of votes or is it stake-weighted?

Stake weighted, obviously. Same as with votes for witnesses.

Makes sense.

I think your proposal is a great idea for keeping someone from getting a bunch of funding just because no one else asked for it. Are there systems in place to keep a large account from self-voting their own proposal and getting all the funding regardless of what the rest of the community says? For instance, what if Steemit or Freedom decided to self-vote their proposal?

Neither of them have majority of votes. It's up to us if we want them to do that. Voting for proposals is basically putting return proposal just below all the proposals we would like to be funded. It needs time (and engagement) to calibrate.

Love it!
We really need that!
Thanks :) Jan ape.gif

Ok, this clarifies a lot for me on the inner workings.
Is the actual voting for proposals something very technical? Or is there a usable user interface provided?

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Voting itself is pretty much similar to voting for witnesses.
It seems that there's still no interface provided by Steemit, but SteemPeak team has one here:

Heh. I was just about to post a comment asking about how to vote on proposals.

This sounds rather essential. Is there a similar setup on Bitshares?

yep, but we have several of those with different thresholds

It's better to ask those Steemians that are more involved in BitShares, I'm not the best person to outline differences.

Ahh sorry, I thought you were on the team there :)

Anyway, I hope this one is voted in sharpish!

If people have further questions about the Steem Proposals I made an FAQ we're looking to add to

117$ need to borrow a spellchecker mate???

here is the 0c post you removed without comment


well used...

Warning: There is no mechanism for refund from the @steem.dao. Non SBD transfers will be rejected, but any SBD donated cannot be refunded.

The mechanism is make a proposal and appeal to stakeholders to fund your proposal for returning it (in case of serious errors). They may or may not do so, there are no guarantees.

and now you take away my moms @buildawhale for a post and downvote her post @steeminfobot....fucking pathetic act....I gotta explain??? go to her blog...tell her why you downvoted her 30$$$??? you emailed her...she told you its her content....wheres the responce "witnesses????"Screenshot_20190829-074810_Chrome.jpg

oh wait...those(only downvotes on my mom ever) were all none associated he says...just coincidence he says...he doesnt controll buildawhale...but thats really freaky than like soooooo fuckhead wont even admit it??.fck cencorships great...

@gtg is just more censoring trash....downvotes flatearth posts because?? lol steems for fuckheads

Here @twigg, an upvote for you! Thanks for the flags, happy u were thinking about me! Thanks!🙏🤙🤙

thanks more commentless should setup a downvote bot on me "witness" like me telling him what hes doing....

Disagreement on rewards. I wouldn't even see that if not being downvoted first.

I mean, I like the proposal system. I might try to make one proposal if I know how to do it. I'll learn watching.

Nice post 👌 man

A bot to autovote on ur return proposal would be very helpful! :)

There's no point for that. There will be almost an hour for voting, and fund will start at very, very low level and increase slowly.

Almost an hour?

I mean before first payout ever possible (which will be very, very, very small, anyway)

Is the window utc?

The HardFork is scheduled for Tue, 27 August 2019 15:00:00 UTC, so if someone create a proposal just after it and vote with power, then they have a chance to grab all rewards from first @steem.dao that is going to happen at 16:00:00 UTC.
But as I said, because SteemDAO starts empty, payouts at the beginning will be very, very small.

So, yes, the window is 24 hours on the utc?
That seems to disadvantage the less active.

Being first isn't worth the 10sbd, for me.

No, payout is every hour.
I don't think that fighting for being first is worth for anyone.
Like I said, first payouts will be pennies if any.

I love to see this kind of development being done inside our ecosystem. Thank you for pushing innovation in our space forward.

Sounds complicated for now .. would it be like witnesses voting system? No window, no elections, vote when you wish as you wish

Where you all got those windows from?
Yes, it's almost as simple as voting for witnesses.
Vote when you wish as you wish :-)

Except both witness and proposals should just be hit buttons only... they should actually research ;)


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This post has been included in the latest edition of The Steem News - a compilation of the key news stories on the Steem blockchain.

@gtg, Steem Proposal System will going to open the doors for many opportunities for great ideas.

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First proposal...

Burn all of the SBD allocated to the SPS for the first 90 days.

Second proposal...

Recreate first proposal for the next 90 days.

And repeat indefinitely. you dissagree with somone getting 0c and remove there content...fucking helm does google work when your here???

@gtg is just more censoring trash....downvotes flatearth posts because?? lol steems for fuckheads

ps. you came downvoted my deleted post...i was refering to the myriad of posts removed because of your view of the political done mate.....

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The current return proposal seems very high, blocking out many useful proposals that many people have voted for, including Hive Keychain (At the time of writing).

Perhaps there should be a cap on this? It doesn't feel right that many highly voted-for proposals are being rejected completely, due to not meeting the return proposal which right now requires over $6 million before a proposal is even considered for funding.