Huge Milestone: Finally Made It to Orca!

in orca •  last month 

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Shoutout to @tarazkp for noticing I hit 50K a while back, but 50k does not make one officially an orca, unfortunately.

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Technically, to get the 100M vesting shares it looks like you have to have around 51,300 Hive powered up.

Embarrassingly enough, I still don't fully know how vesting shares work. I really thought I was getting a handle on it, but then when we forked to Hive I noticed that way less coins were powered up. I assumed incorrectly that the amount of vesting shares given per coin would go up significantly because there is a lot less competition for said shares. I guess vesting shares and coins are more closely linked than I was originally led to believe.

In the end all that really matters is the reward pool and how much of the pool one has control over. Only 144M Hive is powered up right now, so I control at least 0.035% of the reward pool and the same is true for witness voting. Another way of saying this is that I control 1 share of 2800 total shares on Hive. If Hive was perfectly distributed at this level, only 2800 people could own coins. Pretty crazy, especially considering how ultimately undistributed the network actually is.

https://hivebuzz.me/ranking

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The reality of the situation tells a much different tale.

I'm now ranked #351 by Hive Power.

There are some familiar names here:

@troglodactyl is a super interesting one because I remember that account being one of the first big accounts to upvote me way back in the day during 2018. Steem was worth so much more back then, so I stared with envy at these accounts that were worth so much, realizing that I would never have that much stake. I never even thought I would become a dolphin. Pretty crazy how fast the tides turn.

DPOS

I've been having some conversations lately and have been seeing some ideas being thrown around that involve messing with distribution, yet again.

The value of DPOS is that it scales better. We only have to allocate 10% of our inflation to secure the blockchain. The other 90% can be used for whatever. We used to allocate that 90% for the stakeholders to decide. Now we have the Decentralized Hive Fund that siphons out another 10% for development.

I'd like to point out that I'm on record (immutable blockchain) as being fervently against HF21.

  • Convergent Linear Curve
  • Separate Downvote Pool
  • Economic Incentive Proposal (SPS/DHF)
  • 50/50 curation/author rewards (down from 75/25)

It sometimes feels like the witnesses and the elite here keep pushing to give themselves more power. What a surprise. I viewed the SPS as a way for the top witnesses to simply funnel more money into their own pockets. I viewed the convergent curve as another way to simply fuck over the poor and cut their votes in half. I view forced curation as a completely backwards mechanic that is enforced on the backend to justify the broken frontends (trending tabs). Adding a separate downvote pool in my mind was a huge risk and a giant asset just appearing out of nowhere. I'm still surprised no one sells downvotes for pennies on the dollar.

However...

I'm glad that we tested all these things, because now that they've been in the wild for a bit I'm starting to warm up to the downvote pool and the dev fund. The convergent curve and curation are still garbage, and I hope one day I'll be able to prove it with the services I create here.

Why is curation bad?

https://peakd.com/busy/@edicted/war-on-curation
Essentially curation is a broken, easily gamed system that rewards those who use bots and chain analysis. The entire process is centered around curation, meaning to get posts viewed. However, the process of getting posts viewed is entirely dependent on the rules of the associated frontend. It's hard to see the difference here, because currently all our frontends work exactly the same (higher payout, higher visibility). Curation will make less sense once we have other metrics besides payout that determine the visibility of posts (reputation system). It will also make a lot less sense when we have other proof-of-brain activities on Hive; ones that don't require the curation mechanic or perhaps are even incompatible with it.


If you think blogging is going to be the only job Hive offers in 10 years you're sorely mistaken.


I know! Let's eliminate the reward pool!

This idea is floating around and it is 100% a power play by the witnesses to control all the inflation on the platform. The entire advantage of DPOS is that you don't have to spend all your inflation on securing the network. Some witnesses are now telling us: "Lets spend 100% of inflation on securing the network."

I'm not going to name names: you know who you are.

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This is a greedy power play.

Don't let them fool you. They're using logic like:

  • We can move post rewards to another token.
  • Too much selling pressure is being put on Hive.

Hive inflation is high and that indeed does put selling pressure on the network. However, when every stake holder controls 90% (now 80%) of all the inflation on the network, it doesn't matter if your coins are getting diluted, because you can simply upvote yourself and curb that dilution with your own powers of inflation. Some witnesses here seem to want to take that power away from us. It's one of the coolest parts about Hive and this idea to nullify the reward pool should not be considered under any circumstances.

Convergent Curve

The convergent curve is a prime example of this trickery. It makes it so a user with a large stake receives no penalty to their upvote, while someone with less stake or support will only receive half of the rewards.

Another effect of the convergent curve is that it tends to centralize the reward pool to less posts. This means that it is easier to fight abuse without the use of a bot... but at what cost? Is that really necessary when we already have free downvotes to deal with abuse?

In addition, it has no effect on accounts with enough stake to avoid the curve. If we want to fight abuse, we should be doing it from the top down, not from the bottom up. It's not the users with low stake that are taking advantage of the reward pool. At least not the ones we need to be worried about.

Conclusion

I have many unpopular opinions, but hopefully time is on my side. I hope as time goes on my logic on these issues becomes more clear so that I have a strong history of discussing the dynamics involved.

I know I'm suffering from unit bias from this whole Orca achievement, but I don't care. I will never power down from this level. In fact, I wish Hive had a permanent vesting option (something that I have suggested multiple times now) so I could prove that 51k of my stake from this account will never hit the exchanges ever again.

Kudos to me!

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In my write-ups about the Hive that you earn for holding Hive Power, I’ve used the (perhaps poor) analogy that Hive Power is like gold, immutable. And that Hive is like paper money, with purchasing power vulnerable to the effects of inflation.

If you have exactly 100,000,000 vests today (making you an Orca) and do nothing with it for a year (i.e. not even curation), a year from now you’d still have exactly 100,000,000 vests.

But if you have 51,300 liquid Hive today and do nothing with it for a year, you’d still have 51,300 Hive but powering it up would get you less than 100,000,000 vests so you would not be an Orca.

Ah yes, I remember now.
You've talked about this a lot.
It can be surprisingly confusing.

Funny because I'd like to get rid of that mechanic altogether.
Move that 15% of inflation to the bank accounts where they belong.
The value of doing so more than pays for itself.

  ·  last month (edited)

I know! Let's eliminate the reward pool!

Eternal oligarchy. If this happens I'm finding the nearest exit. The distribution of inflation of the base token is the only hope this experiment has for true community governance. Until the middle class fills out and we build more orcas such as yourself, we are merely winking at community governance. A small subset of whales can dictate all changes currently, especially since many of them refuse to vote the return proposal. We need 1000 more orcas, and at least a hundred times as many dolphins in my opinion.

These new code controllers have a lot to live down from what they acquiesced to on steem.

They have been just fine with centralizing the inflation from the get go, they just weren't as viscious as ned, imo.

When hive started the median payout went as high as .8, but now it has returned to .4.
I can guarantee that isn't from new account dilution of the pool.
The top twenty voters still get 10 votes that still take upwards of 25% of the pool.

Check that math, I tend to spitball my guestimates and the fella that was pulling the numbers for me left.
@statsmonkey
My math is saying that those 200 post taking ~25% is leaving the other 9950 daily authors to split the rest.
https://steempeak.com/steemit/@bitgeek/payout-stats-report-for-22nd-december-2017--part-ii

If mass adoption, and not minimum dilution by the pool of the largest stakeholders is the goal, they are gonna have to let more inflation go to the redfish and minnows, and less to the orcas and whales, iyam.

Would you give up your payouts to see the coin get mass adopted?
I know I would, but my payouts barely buy food for the week.

Greedy folks gonna greed.

Missed this. Congrats. Yeah I know you need the 100M - but it was symbolic :D

Congrats on Orca. I think I may hit Dolphin myself this year, although recent events have soured me a little.

If they were to do away with rewards to give it all to the miners claiming a new token would be for rewards, I would be out of here as quick as I was when Justin was insinuating the same thing. I never did the Steem Engine stuff, and wont in the future. If they want to limit their tokens from the community, guessing they will find out the results might be pretty similar to the ones Justin is seeing.

Glad you agree.

although recent events have soured me a little.

I can imagine.

You not sold your soul to the highest bidder yet? What was it last time? Oh yes families, children, Looking for another sugar daddy? Another sweet earner? As bad as any politician ever, now where is the book you claimed to be writing? Between me and him, and nobody else, history speaks volumes and I will not call you sir out of contempt!

lmao, isn't it time for you to rage quit again? Thank you for not calling me sir. The way you pass that title (as well as legend) denigrates any meaning it would hold. Sorry I seem to still be eating at you, but I refuse to pay rent for the space in your head I seem to be taking.

Again, where is the book? Evidence of it, you whore, I detest you as I detest them, and no, you ae not getting fucking called sir, you whore, NEXT!

  ·  last month (edited)

Typical left wing bollox, is it not time for you to rage quit, you voting for some leader again? Fuck me you sound like antifa, or any other political mind fart, do us all a favor will you, and NO I am not consumed by you, I detest you, I just happened to find your vile stinking vitriol on someones page I actually intellectually like, unlike you! Now run along and find your next cash cow.

Congrats, I got Orca a few months ago, and now, due to the regular Steem dumps and Hive pickus, I will sonn be in the top 250 HP-wise. I would have never dreamed about it.
Next target 100K HP! Let´s go for it!

Kudos to you @edicted . This is an achievement and this shows how committed you are to the Hive community as a whole and shows your efforts towards pushing hive to a greater level. Regards

Bit cult ish that statement, and worrying.

Congratulation on be an orca.
Will wish to attend that feet and beyomd one day

A permanent vesting sounds really nice, a burn of sorts. Congrats on the milestone.

About the curve, I think it is valid to stop all the spamming/comment farming. But I think that at the moment it is having effects even on big posts which is not cool. We need it to work for lower values of HIVE power upvote.

Also, what do you think of making curation rewards constant? The reward for finding "undervalued" content is only making people vote the same authors at the 5 min mark (or eve na bit before) in order to maximize rewards from the other votes.

If we changed so that you get the same curation rewards for any post - with a similar vote size of course - then people might start to upvote what they enjoy! Way better what do you think.

What does a curator do? They show something they think has value to other people. This mechanic is already built in with the reblog function. Monetizing the reblog function is the proper way to implement curation.

Again, none of this should be forced on the consensus layer. Does an artist get forced to hire someone to showcase their work? Or do they choose to do it on purpose to get more exposure. Forced curation is backwards thinking.

Good job reaching orca. Now to sell you in the idea of convergent linear curves, increased curation amd decreased author rewards.

I also have to admit that 50/50 curation is a pretty fun mechanic.
Upvoting others is basically just like upvoting yourself.
Makes it a lot easier for stakeholders to spread the wealth around.

I think curation should be a variable set by the author between 25~100% and voting power should be affected by unique accounts voted for to discourage circle jerking. We also need to consider sending excess or early rewards to null instead of back to the reward pool.

Indeed, I would just modify that to 0%-100% to make it totally optional.
Makes the most sense.
It should not be forced or static.

Yes. With free downvotes no need to force minimal curation %, the people abusing it will learn quickly. Thinking about it I have more of a concern with allowing it to go much over 75% as curators may set very annoying standards to have a chance of receiving their uovote. Fighting curation abuse isn't practical now.

I imagine that curators that did that would find their upvotes getting nullified.
Of course that adds the weird dynamic of the author being like "WTF!".

I think the value of the convergent linear curve and increased curation is going to experience diminishing returns over time. I don't have much of a problem with it right now, but I think the problem is only going to get worse as we head into the future. I guess we can table it for now; wait and see.

The whole point is it was part of EIP, so we need to evaluate the effectivess of the economic improvement.

I'm certain the downvotes have worked - fewer bots, less abuse because more retaliation. I think the curation has worked - my rewards are up but could be related to fewer bots. I have my doubts about convergent linear - we can counter microfarming with our own bots and DV using bots.

In fact, I think the only important improvement was free downvotes. You worry about them being sold and abused. This is really rare. Doing that just finds people in a war.

I also cannot argue with increased curation. There was way too much crap being published and self upvoted. We need more data though.

Thanks
This made my head hurt, but I feel like I have a good handle on this now. Congrats on Orca! That’s a big achievement.

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Hit 50k myself today and looking forward to the 'official official' status lol

Congrats on Orca-hood!!!!

I tend to appreciate your approach in this verse.
You are using decentralization to the fullest
of its apparatus.
Only a few will sponge the narrative at stake.
By the way Congrats for reaching Orca.

Wow, congratulations, that’s a huge milestone! Time for a !BEER

The rewarding curve is a garbage, fully agree, and I don’t understand why we don’t change it, unless you are right.

I clearly see proof of brain a much better way of earning. We all need to start thinking of much better metrics to make Hive grow and also get a natural way to kick bots and auto-voting systems out of the way. They are just token suckers providing no value at all.

Only numbers, but if it gives you comfort then so be it, like the power of politicians, the race to the top, is?

I prefer the Race To The Bottom, friend.

https://peakd.com/race/@edicted/the-race-to-the-bottom

I am on said train. and you unlike that fucktard whore on your timeline, I will call friend.

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Wow, well done! I'm aproaching my year objective of 2500 HP, now I see what a modest objective it was. Go go 100k HP! ;)

Dang 50k in the big time! I'm 1 5th of the way now and it looks like a massive climb to get there, but I'll give it a try and keep on trucking

Congrats!

Your Posts are awesome. I like your thoughts and I hope you get more power on the blockchain.

  ·  last month (edited)

Eliminating the reward pool?! That's the first time I have heard that. I don't quite understand why some people are proposing it

and congratz btw :)

gj

Congrats on reaching Orca level, I am a long way from getting theer :)

That is already a great achievement. I am not even close. Well done! Congratulations! 🤑😇