Downvoting due high pending rewards and a lack of engagement?

in newsteem •  10 months ago  (edited)

I've been look at a method to use the wisdom of the crowd and perceived lack of interest in highly rewarded content to help with judgement on downvotes...



not original source but no reference at IBM.com sooo 🤷


At the time of writing and according to my data source (UTC), there are still 8.5 hours left of August 28th 2019. And the total count of downvotes so far today has surpassed the total of any day in the past week. Even more noticeable is the combined weight of these downvotes:

DateSum CountSum WeightFull downvote equivalent
01/08/20193242-9720452972
02/08/20193102-8684254868
03/08/20192134-6704068670
04/08/20192529-8214811821
05/08/20191939-6854359685
06/08/20191641-4175303418
07/08/20192452-5814644581
08/08/20192449-7163653716
09/08/20192812-108390891084
10/08/20192790-7484883748
11/08/20192383-8832999883
12/08/20191823-7206883721
13/08/20194534-8250523825
14/08/20194467-7209649721
15/08/20193655-7869205787
16/08/20195524-8317027832
17/08/20193431-6248539625
18/08/20193353-5962928596
19/08/20192863-6441590644
20/08/20193158-3636864364
21/08/20192841-5670519567
22/08/20192331-3657605366
23/08/20192316-4737647474
24/08/20192081-7145175715
25/08/20192522-7312728731
26/08/20192618-8319849832
27/08/20192235-9110369911
28/08/20192698-164097911641

With east coast America still enjoying their morning coffee, the total weight of downvotes today has surpassed any other day this month with many hours to spare.

#newsteem has spoken.


Prior to the hard fork, there has been discussion on chain (and likely plenty off-chain) regarding where downvotes would be placed - Trending (highly 'valued' content), plagiarism/abuse, and personal vendettas 🤦‍♂️ to name but a few.

There are mechanics in place for the second and I'm not really interested in the third, but what about Trending? Something has to be there - even if every post was zero'd there would still be a list of content (as far as I am aware). And so, how to decide what should be there or not?

As an aside, I just wanted to mention the possibility of having a collection of say 200 accounts (the downvote Oracle?), if say 20 of which downvoted a piece of content, then (all respected) bid-bot votes would be removed auto-magically.

If the terms and conditions of the bots stated this so their users were aware of the risk, and if 200 trusted community members could be found somehow, that could work?

Back to the content with high pending rewards, the wisdom of the crowd, and a piece of script.

(for the links to work you will need to add an @ next to the username of the account in the address bar. I have not included it to avoid notifications going out to these accounts 🐥)

linkcommentspending$_per_comment
link162.80762.807
link157.07957.079
link152.51652.516
link150.74450.744
link147.33547.335
link047.25547.255
link146.96746.967
link146.44746.447
link046.04146.041
link144.47344.473
link143.87643.876
link043.09343.093
link283.55741.7785
link141.5541.55
link041.49641.496
link141.34241.342
link041.13841.138
link140.62740.627
link139.56539.565
link038.54538.545
link138.07738.077
link137.14437.144
link037.08937.089
link134.86234.862
link134.5234.52
link266.23233.116
link132.6432.64
link132.09632.096
link131.83531.835
link031.76731.767

The above is a list of the top 30 pieces of content that have 2 comments or less, are at least a day old, ordered by their pending payout divided by number of comments.

(0 and 1 comment give the same value to avoid divide by 0 (NAN) errors which isn't ideal)

So the content is at least 24 hours old, and should have had some eyes / views in Hot or Trending, but there is little to no engagement? Why?

  • They 'botted' late (post miles from Trending by now)
  • They are just starting out and don't have an audience yet
  • The content isn't interesting

It is likely to be one of these 3 things and so a manual assessment should be made - just starting out and promoting a couple of posts is fair game?

I looked at the recent posting history of the account and also grouped accounts along with their comment count and pending payouts before deciding on which content I would remove a small allocation of the pending rewards from.

One account had over $350 in pending rewards and < 10 comments across 7 posts....


Is this a reasonable approach if taking the additional manual steps prior to action?

Or in other words, is highly rewarded content without engagement which is being consistently(persistently) produced by the same account worthy of a downvote?

Anyway, that's how I've chosen my 2.5 a day - today and yesterday. (Watch the engagement rise from those 25 rep friends 😀)

Cheers

Asher

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

Is it not possible to have good posts with high payouts and no comments? I think it's because it's a new thing, that's why there's a lot of downvotes now

Yes it is certainly possible, and that's a good reason to check the content before issuing a downvote.

Is it possible to have multiple pieces of content in trending with no comments? Less so without something being not quite right in my opinion.

Personally, I think we should look at Trending from the eyes of a visitor to the site. If they are looking at suspect content which has no commentary, how are they going to feel?

Wow look! I can and get paid this much and I don't even have to respond to anyone #oldsteem

to respond someone needs to comment :D

Alright

I wonder if there is an existing solution for this problem already.........

Is it not possible to have good posts with high payouts and no comments?

No, I don't think that's possible, not organically anyway.
Sure, there could be 100% votes from for example @theycallmedan, @blocktrades and @smooth, leading to a high payout value without them commenting on it; in theory that is. But I highly doubt them to upvote content to which nobody else engages with either.
So no: high organic payouts without any engagement is extremely rare if not impossible.

Alright, thanks for your thoughts

Is this a reasonable approach if taking the additional manual steps prior to action?

Interesting idea, but I guess people will start creating artificial comments if it is getting realized ... :)

You've been delegating for almost a year to a solution which doesn't value artificially generated comment engagement...

Indeed. The phone a friend option is tougher to trace though :)

Yes that would be an easy way around it.

The code also found this @bukdb 🤦🏻‍♂️

Thanks for drilling down into the detail. Sometimes the sand on the beach can look different from a height. Your post helps those who stay away from the politics and technicalities.

Posted using Partiko Android

Thank you for the positive feedback :)

That was a great way to do it!

Cheers :D

Thanks for this list. I hit a few, will add the offenders to my rekt list.

The rekt list, nice.

Yeah I took the @ out of the URL so notifications wouldn't go out and so the links will need that adding.

Some of them could be one off willing to improve types, but there are some frequent low-ballers in there too!

  ·  10 months ago Reveal Comment
  ·  10 months ago Reveal Comment
  ·  10 months ago Reveal Comment

You have no SP little man. You’re weak as fuck.

You have no SP little man. You’re weak as fuck.

  ·  10 months ago Reveal Comment
  ·  10 months ago (edited)Reveal Comment
  ·  10 months ago Reveal Comment
  ·  10 months ago (edited)Reveal Comment

#NewSteem is good, but we need to send this message too, #ShutTheBotsDown

I'm not sure they will be shut down, but used more sparingly would be a good start.

Some of curation highlight post like the first link could take a hit, I really do not think they should bid bot them myself, however it is a method to get their list of what they felt was valuable content highlighted. Are these list worth the dollar amount they get? not sure myself. I have been put on a list or two a few times but have rarely commented back on the list. If they gave a real vote to my content then I would vote for them, but if it is just a look at my list help me make money off the backs of other peoples work then I completely by-pass it.

That being said they do provide a sort of service for people looking for content, so a couple bid bot buys and the rest all trails or manual votes, a very hard thing to see. I do not think automated down votes would work, there is just to much subjective stuff to evaluate.

That was bid on today too, day 6 of the post........

I know steemleo do not like daily curation ($) highlight or staking posts, they are easy to produce and from what I see do not earn much engagement.

Most of the ones I have ever viewed did not have a lot of comments, but they do get what look like a lot of real votes too, mostly trails I am sure. Until there is a click through feature we will never know if these curation, "Look at what I found" post are used or not. I know I have clicked a few highlighted post on various list, but not a lot, and I myself rarely vote on them because I try to vote on created content and assembling a list of links,..like you said...easy to do, so pretty low effort on their part.

Sorry for being a bit slow on this but do “downvote trails” exist yet?

Posted using Partiko iOS

Yeah https://steemit.com/@steemflagrewards

I think the code for using just the free 2.5 is still being worked on but they have been going a while and mainly target low grade posts that have been promoted.

Yeah that code will be useful to step up the reward redistribution activity. Cheers

Posted using Partiko iOS

Nice number, for the 1st day (and 7,5 hrs left). Looks promising.

Sure is, but will it last I wonder...

'There's enough to target', you wrote somewhere below. If everyone would (at least) use those 2,5 free downvotes every day IF needed, there should/might be a positive outcome longer term with several issues.

For sure. Plenty to go round.

I'll be checking if the DVs continue and trying to encourage that they do.

I think I will stay away from posting, because it's not my thing.. I'm not an author and I just can't take it when someone downvote my post. Playing steemmonsters is a better choice for me. The HF21 game only for the powerful and Strong based community members.

Post about Splinterlands and tag #battle #steemace #spt

You can earn Tribe tokens with very little risk of downvotes :)

https://www.splintertalk.io/steemmonsters/@abh12345.spt/hf21-quest-day

Interesting idea! I need something to make flagging easier.

None of the links in your second table work btw.

Cheers!

The small print above the table states you need to add a @ before the username - i didn't want to get a bunch of angry people arrive, no more than usual anyway :D

That's a very good way to do it!! I have been more of a how much for that shit? kinda guy. It is great though. I really do get the feeling that downvotes are being normalised and that is no bad thing. I hope the impetus keeps up!

Cheers! I didn't include the 2nd table but when you see accounts that are stacking up those pending rewards, consistently in trending, and getting 0 comments - something ain't right!

how much for that shit?

Also works :)

The early impetus is good. I have been told that 'people won't handle the death threats, doxxing, harassment, and retaliation flags' and so the numbers could well drop off if that happens :O :O

Hehe, that's the funny thing, I have yet to set mad behaviour although I did see some dude on trending plead innocent to wrongdoing and ask for them to be removed. Lol!!

Was that the one where the content entries would have paid for the prizes 4x over?

Tres genereux monsieur!

I think it was!!!!

I didn't know!!! Where are the rules!!!

There are no rules!!

My 3speak videos average between $15-20, have a small amount of comments and receive votes hours after posting. The only "bot" I use is a curation trail and that gives me about .90 cents. The rest of my payout amount comes from actual humans with large SP.

Would my posts need to be reviewed?

I cannot answer, but would not downvote without checking out the content first - no comments could just mean a lack of visibility for you right now.

I am still scared of downvoting as I dont want retaliation. An alt account COULD be a good way to do this but far out, does my head in switching betwewn various accounts already. Kudos to those who are DELIBERATELY seeking them out and using up their downvotes.

Im still at a losss at why posts at less than 20 steem get less. So far no one has been able to explain the logic of this to me.

If you look at some of the links, they are littered with downvotes - don't be afraid, you are in the majority :)

Im still at a losss at why posts at less than 20 steem get less. So far no one has been able to explain the logic of this to me.

I'm not the right person to explain in detail, but an adjustment to the reward curve is something to do with it!

That taifkan guy needs to relax with bidbots, spent all on him. Why boost such nonsense to trending, absolutely shameless.

That's where all mine have gone for the past couple of days - that stuff is surely not what people want to see.

All right. You’ve finally convinced me to put some effort into finding content worthy of a downvote. I wish we’d do away with the trending page all together, but as long as it’s there, it matters what shows on it.

Posted using Partiko iOS

I guess Steemit.com needs to present something to the outside world.

Good to hear you taking a look!

I have used up my free downvotes today on some trending posts. $100 for a low effort picture post is bad for Steem. Some are retaliating, but the sheer number of downvotes makes that impractical. There are also accounts who manage to stay under the radar whilst making a lot of junk posts. Our 'favourite' market analyst is still self-voting his multiple posts per day with hardly any responses. Other do loads of comments and self-vote them. These accounts have a lot of SP, so maybe the bigger players should take them on.

Anyway, it is looking good so far. I hope it continues. I would expect to see some tools to automate this good work.

Bad for Steem? - that's what people have to think when they judge.

Our 'favourite' market analyst is still self-voting his multiple posts per day with hardly any responses.

He's in the list many times, just a bit further down.

I hear anything over 20 STEEM (about $4) is likely to earn a bit more, and everything under a bit less. So much fair/good/excellent content is under that threshold, and so yes, I hope things continue.

The will be a rebalancing of rewards. Getting up rewards with downvotes may gain is smaller players a little extra. Few of my posts make 20 Steem. We need the big a chip targeted their votes where they do good for the recipients, with an eye on quality. We need a trending page that will attract new users, so it should not all be about Steem.

Right. Bringing down the larger payouts should rise everything else, hopefully.

I will not downvote any retaliation known whales that could zero my account.
I love drama, but not on my expense.
:))
But so far the 2 free downvotes is much fun.
I can finally look at trending again, to search for targets:)

There is enough to target without being nuked yourself :)

Move some of your stake off chain to anonymous voting accounts that cannot be traced back to you. If you use your upvoting power to curate you can earn rewards that cannot be touched even by a whale. Then you can use your downvoting power without any fear of retaliation.

If everyone did that, there would be no one to retaliate against. 1000 Dolphins equals 5 million SP. That's enough to nuke almost any whale account.

I think we can find ways to use this new superpower. For now most people should deal with the abusers with less sp and let the whales/orcas hit the big ones.

There are also accounts who manage to stay under the radar whilst making a lot of junk posts. Our 'favourite' market analyst is still self-voting his multiple posts per day with hardly any responses. Other do loads of comments and self-vote them.

I think (and hope) these will be targeted as well after the first low hanging fruit has been dealt with (Trending).

A quick check in the database tells me he's had visitors, just not from the largest accounts (who are at times Witnesses who would like to keep his / ranchorelaxo's vote)

Every abusive whale can be crushed by the collective.

True, if they got organised.

Number of DVs fell sharply after the first full day...

Most people who have overused bid bots are now very wary of doing that. The low hanging fruit have been picked. It's harder to find DV worthy material now. Sometimes it can be difficult to draw the line between abusive farming and acceptable use of one's SP for ROI. There are no generally accepted guidelines. Using all of your upvoting power on yourself is perhaps clear abuse, particularly now that curators get 50%. What percentage of your upvoting power used on your own posts is considered acceptable? What is the difference between a circle jerk and friends and acquaintances appreciating each other's content?

I'm sure efforts will be organised for this. You need coordinated measures to reduce the risk of retaliation, but I expect they will hit back. I think there will always be some who operate by proof of greed to deal with.

BTW I'm voting up posts rather than comments now as it seems a better use of my voting power.

Taking neither of those guys on is not only for the bigger accounts. If a thousand Dolphins gang up on them, they will die by a million stings. That would be the most beautiful thing ever in the history of this chain.

If we can coordinate such actions then it could work, but they are likely to lash out. I hope we can keep the momentum going with this and take on all forms of reward abuse.

This is why you power down some of your stake and move it to one or more anonymous curation accounts impossible to trace back to you. You have to do it off chain, of course. You need to go through an exchange. If everyone does that, they have nobody to lash out against. You don't have to even lose money doing this because you use the positive voting power to earn by curating (you can use SteemAuto to time your votes optimally) and the free 2.5 downvotes to snipe at the whales. They simply cannot revenge flag because you can't single out any curator by downvoting a piece of content. If they downvote everything you curate, they will very quickly run out of voting power even if they have millions of SP.

The method is completely foolproof and I'd love to see thousands of Steemians adopt it. If an entire beehive attacks a bear, they can kill it. No coordination required. Nobody has to be willing to take one for the team or anything like that.

I do have other accounts, but they can be traced back to me. I will consider this option, but there are enough low sp abusers to deal with for now.

Organically getting to trending plus business promotions (best use of bid botting I can think of) sound good for trending to me. Obv if the business is wack then itll get the downvote hammer.

I'm with you on business promotions being what I like to see on Trending. Less photos of your cat and more of these please :)

At least Steem users once again have a use for looking at the trending page for flagging! Perhaps that will one day turn into worthwhile being in trending.

Are you filtering out known auto reply from bots on posts to determine the count? A couple I clicked on that shows 1 comment was left by a bot. Removing those comments might yield a better result not already being done so.

:) Yep, a new reason which will hopefully in time be replaced by 'oooh, that's not actually that bad an article'

Most are bot comments from what i saw, but quite varied. I'll probably add a list but i think that this approach will not work for long - long enough though hopefully :)

Hey Asher.
This post alongside Dan's reply gave me the will to start a "rekt" list myself.
On a related note, did you add me to the engagement league already?
Cheers

Nice :)

I have added you to the engagement league list as you weren't there :O

check out @kgakakillerg I think he fit the description pretty well, be warned he is a big fan of retaliation

You flagged me for no reason @gunsmithing

20 dollar earnings on a post rewarding some "lucky person" with a .02 cent card, hundreds of upvotes with only a couple comments seems like a spam post to me... I flagged it and you flagged everything of mine you could find, good news for me I don't post that often. And I powered up my steem so I can play this game if you would like.

I don't play games you've been warned

You don't write anything but spam either. Your warning is noted

You need to just leave it If I write nothing but spam why do I get upvotes from some big players in steemit who I know personally I did use bidbots alot in the past but I will not use them like that any more I've invested money in this I've never powered down I upvote all the main people I do the best I can.
edit I just see you down vote my posts again

Yes I downvoted more posts, I don't respond kindly to intimidation attempts. If you believe you are trying your best my sincerest apologies, but i'm sure you would agree this is not trying your best https://steemit.com/photography/@kgakakillerg/snickers-almond
I am happy to quit downvoting you, I propose you write an article in which you create something for yourself(art,music,diy, anything of value to the community) I would be happy to upvote it. As to (big accounts upvoting you) It is no concern of mine what they choose to support. Best of luck I hope you choose to make content that means something to you and others

Ok thanks im going to share one of my old music tracks I hope I get a upvote

I just made a post that means something to me I just hope you like it and everyone else

Ok

Whilst I'm not keen on getting less on my payouts, already quite under-valued in my [totally] objective and neutral opinion 😁 I see an opportunity to potentially increased my exposure whilst other's are holding back their content due to their concerns over getting less reward. I see it as a time to push some content out and reach curators looking to click that upvote button.

I used my two DV's yesterday and will do so again today and everyday as I see the benefit of pushing out the rapers...Who likes rapey people anyhow? I saw a comment on this post Asher, one which said the person is afraid to DV due to reprisals...Funny how the perception or thought of bullying can have the same effect as the act itself.

Anyway, I better go and write some more content...It's magnificent you know, my content...Speaking from a truly neutral and unbiased position of course. 😏

Very undervalued, not 'quite' :)

Funny how the perception or thought of bullying can have the same effect as the act itself

Indeed. It's a shame they feel that way, I hope #newsteem shifts perception.

More content, throw some #sportstalk in at times too :)

I've got one going up tomorrow on sportsalk actually. It's magnificent! 😶

I shall take a look and likely support, although perhaps not in that order 😬

Grazie mille.

Hi @abh12345!

Your post was upvoted by @steem-ua, new Steem dApp, using UserAuthority for algorithmic post curation!
Your UA account score is currently 6.717 which ranks you at #127 across all Steem accounts.
Your rank has not changed in the last three days.

In our last Algorithmic Curation Round, consisting of 144 contributions, your post is ranked at #77.

Evaluation of your UA score:
  • You've built up a nice network.
  • The readers appreciate your great work!
  • Try to work on user engagement: the more people that interact with you via the comments, the higher your UA score!

Feel free to join our @steem-ua Discord server

Why would people downvote a high reward post? If the post is legit and of good quality, then to downvote it just because the rewards are high is downright unfair and bullying.

Posted using Partiko Android

did you read only the first 5 words of the title and nothing else? sheesh.

the problem of today's people, scan thru text with 100 mph speed 🥴

Seemingly didn't even make it through the title though - even I'm not that bad!

Lol that's why I normally slap a few headings between my content so even skimmers can get the jist of it lol

Comments have really dried up on this HF i've seen quite a few posts get a few manual upvotes and get more rewards than the author usually gets but still 1 or 0 comments, I feel like Im one of the only people still commenting, although it helps to get some ESTM tokens for my comments I still like to blab on peoples posts and for the most part they pretend to like it when I do

I have commented less these past few weeks to be honest, but still scrape into the EL top 20, hmm...

See you around a lot though, fair play.

Can you tell me what you do with these ESTM tokens, @chekohler? I just found out a have a lot of them when I upgraded esteem today. I did not have a notification on my old version anddid not even know they were there. I am commenting and posting as normal. I will move more commenting/replying to esteem if this makes sense. TY for any info.

If you're on the android version 2.2 on your mobile or 2.2 desktop app you can now exchange them for upvotes or burn them for additional promotion space in the app or donate/tip them to other users

Thank you very much for this info. I will try to got the upvotes since I am in the desert now, lol.

Congratulations @abh12345! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

Your post was the most commented on one day

You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking
If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP

To support your work, I also upvoted your post!

Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!

It's not clear at all that lack of engagement should be punished. A post can be valuable even without much engagement.

If the ability to draw eyeballs is one criterion by which content should be evaluated for eligibility to be in Trending, then some type of metrics could be useful. Posts that have the ability to attract a lot of viewers from outside of the Steem user base should be rewarded.

Certainly not the be all and end all, but it did help surface a list of potentials, and I see that you have downvoted at least one on the list - maybe not via this post, but as long as we get there one way or the other I guess.

Posts that have the ability to attract a lot of viewers from outside of the Steem user base should be rewarded.

I could not agree more, but if they have attracted no interest on the 'inside', are they likely to be of interest from the outside of Steem?

I've been doling out more than my 2.5 100% downvotes in the past couple of days. It's been a pleasure to witness the face of Trending to transform so rapidly.

It certainly has!

Great work once again Asher. At the leading edge of the analytics on this once again. Hopefully some of the bigger stake will take notice.

Thanks. Yeah it seems the post was noticed and action has been taken :)

  ·  10 months ago (edited)

I'd already downvoted on one from your list Asher.

But I've got to be honest, when you see a bidbot owner downvoting a bidboted post that makes me wonder if we're not all being manipulated somewhat with this #newsteem narrative. Shouldn't we hold them to account for making the whole shit show possible?

Food for thought. I will be writing longer posts again soon when I return from holiday and a lot of them will be about these discrepancies in the behaviour we're all being herded toward 👍

Posted using Partiko Android

I know what you are saying, and have heard others discussing also.

Not sure if there is a solution as yet but it does seem like wasted energy.

Looking forward to your thoughts, enjoy the rest of your hols :)