COVID-19 & THE HIVE PROPOSAL; What is the truth?
There's so much going on but at the same time, like, nothing going on at the same time. A large percentage of the world is on lockdown/quarantine with all the self-isolation and corona precautions in place, so a lot of businesses are closed and many people have lost their job in the process. There's widespread paranoia, and with that comes panic accompanied by conspiracy theories about vaccines, depopulation, and all the other stuff on the internet.
Is Bill the Villain or Hero?
At the forefront of these conspiracies is a certain Bill Gates. You might have heard about him because he's only one of the wealthiest people on Earth that got bored of making billions through computers and started a foundation with his wife, Melinda, where they focus on infectious diseases and whatnot.
As I mentioned earlier, paranoia is in the atmosphere and you can literally sniff it when you step out of the house. In every corner, you find so many corona "experts" yapping from the comfort of their homes or beer parlour about how Corona could be solved easily and how the idiot leaders can't see it. For what it's worth, I think the leaders of my country are idiots but this feeling is borne from a long time of ineptitude, rather than the peculiar situation we're in now, I digress.
Now word on the street is that good old Bill is somehow the one responsible for creating the virus because of his statements about population control. This rumor that was tagged as a Bizzare conspiracy theory by Business Insider was loud enough to get the world to "sit up" and suddenly people are thinking, "wait a minute, it seems this Bill guy isn't the good guy he prances around to be.
These rumours are unfounded, but they're also just that, rumours made by armchair analysts and people in the know. I don't think he'd go through the stress of creating a virus, and then put up this charade to create a vaccine for it, although he's just human and we all know humans can be twats. The questions I have or wonder about are;
- Why are the vaccines mandatory?
- Why does one man have so much influence on international healthcare?
I don't know his intentions, and I can't claim to have an idea about it. I've come in contact with a lot of information supporting, or against good old Bill but not enough of people looking at both perspectives.
The Proposal
This brings me to THE PROPOSAL by @justineh that has caused a major stir in the community. The truth is an interesting thing; in certain situations, it is black or white, while in other situations, it is a rainbow.
The first time I saw Justine was on Steem where I figured she was either some whale or big shot because her posts got a lot of upvotes and engagement. then I ran into her Twitter and noticed she was also getting a lot of attention there from people outside of the Steem community. I put two and two together and realised she was a big deal.
Coming back to today, I read her proposal that we all know about where she requested $30k for her work in getting us listed on Exchanges, as well as for further two months of work as stated there.
If you've not read the proposal, I suggest you do, because it is probably the most entertaining proposal you'd ever read, but in a horror-thriller kind of way. I can't even quantify the rollercoaster of emotions I felt while reading it and a part of me felt insulted, demeaned, trampled on, shit on...you get the point. That's how I feel.
I'd normally steer clear of politics in any capacity because things tend to get really awry really fast, but with a situation so loud, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on the issue, and get some honest responses, in form of questions to Justine or anyone willing to chip in on the matter;
- Without playing the modesty card, and with every single ounce of honesty in you, do you really think this proposal would go through if it were done by me or any other member of the community?
- Would you vote for a proposal like this?
- Would you be fine with everyone in the community wrote proposals for remuneration for their contribution during the hostile takeover?
- Would your $30k contribution matter if the community didn't react and take to tweeting and creating awareness?
- Are you insinuating that all the exchanges we got listed on were exclusively as a result of your input because this is how it seems?
But with some ingenuity from the group as well as showcasing the power of the community and our story, we were able to satisfy legal requirements as well as show why no centralized company was needed.
- In your proposal, you used "we" regularly and I'll quote one instant above. Are you insinuating that the only reason Hive got listed and attention was because of this closed group of individuals(Three of you)?
I'd really like some closure right now, because, unlike you, where it is just business, and you have the liberty to get paid for your time through the community fund, the rest of us go the long way round.
Rolling Back
Oh well, I let my emotions seep out there for a bit but the topic is truth. The truth is that everyone has their own version of the truth, and we're all right in our own right. I know mine, but it is not a hill I'm willing to die on; hearing yours would go a long way in reducing the hurt, and finding a midpoint in everything.
I personally thought @justineh's ask was a reasonable one. And I thought it a courageous move from a talented woman in an otherwise very boysy crypto world.
I DO think she deserves to be remunerated. and 30K is not unreasonable AT ALL. Au contraire. The VALUE the listings will bring to Hive far outweigh the modest amount she is asking for, which is well beneath commercial rate and which has saved the community a small fortune. Measure that cost over income generated over time and it becomes a tiny ask.
The only reason I haven't voted YES to the proposal is cos I do think there MAY be others who deserve remuneration. As a plankton in the pond, I don't even know enough to know who they might be.
I'd personally like to see a series of posts from people who know, who were there (not your average algae asking "what about me? I tweeted once") suggesting who the top people are they think contributed to listings (doing exactly what for how long etc) and to Hive's successful establishment who need-deserve remunerating. A top 5-10-20 group could be voted-agreed on by the wider community and a defined sum allocated. The Yes-No of the proposal system doesn't allow for an alternative.
A quiet private standing ovation for a courageous community member who has contributed a lot and has the courage to ask for what she is worth.
I'm your average algae and this sort of hurts you know? I'm emotionally invested in this company and I'd have done the same things she did for free, but that's just me and the thousands of other algae who were busy creating buzz who didn't write proposals for our services.
Thanks for giving me clarity all the same.
haha @abh12345 LOL. Yup. Nailed it with that last comment.
It's all good. It is just business and money is money.
Agreed. As far as:
I think they have spoken with their votes for the proposal and in commentary on her post.
I'm bored of hearing about people thinking that tweeting closes a deal with a multi-million dollar company!
Without the tweets, the multi-million dollar company won't give a shit. The companies evaluate the community's potential based on the buzz created. Or will a multi-million dollar company list a coin if only a selected group use it?
Do you have any facts to support this opinion?
Does the 'buzz' have to pass a certain decibel level?
Yes because buzz is a strong determinant of the value of most entities these days. Especially if there's a positive sentiment around the internet. Here's an academic publication to back my first statement
Research gate
Well, considering Hive doesn't have a marketing department, and that we're Decentralised, it is our collective responsibility to promote/shill the platform. We all made loud enough noise to make John McAfee, cointelegraph and numerous reputable outlets talk about us. Or do you want to say that all those events were also coordinated by the select few?
Don't get me wrong, I'm taking nothing away from input but as a community, we all work to our collective capacities and with our resources. If certain members ask to be paid for their services from the community fund for that, then I don't get where we're going.
Yes. Binance and Huobi backing down. Binance issuing a statement over major influencers picking up the story like McAfee, Vitalik, The greek Bitcoin guy. Not a single thing would happen without the community outcry.
There are metrics that are taken into account, yes.
If youre refering to "decibels" as loudness of sound then decibels are irelevant in the case of typing words over the internet.
No. Highly unreasonable is the right description.
The only reason why there is even a talk about this is because WE GOT LISTED.
We got listed because of the actions of the community.
If she asked for 30k for the same amount of work (or even for more work) and exchanges didnt list us, people would have told her to bugger off.
So really, shes not asking to get payed for her work. Shes asking to get payed for the results.
And the results are NOT her doing. They are OUR doing.
This kind of work is either voluntary or is payed like 1000$ a month at best. Its basically secretary work.
If she wasnt popular this would never pass. Its the reason no one else made this proposal except her that was involved
No one outside the "secret" group, outside the people that had insider knowledge could have got the job. 1 guy that wanted it was even kicked and told he was too greedy for asking for 100$ a day and shes asking for $500.
Oh and youre saying we should give her money because shes a girl? Fuck off with that neofeminist shit.
You keep throwing that around a lot.. you got proof of that?
Also math is helpful.. he wanted $100 a day, full time ( $36,500yr in a 3mth rolling contract). This was only for his role though, for sending the initial emails. He wanted to build a team, me included as he didn’t want to do the full workload to get a listing .. and pay us all this ($30k each x 4 = $120k). As “the exchange listings were going to take 6mths to a year”. I didn’t think money should be asked for before work was done. I also saw no need for a full time team on it. It was short term work.. get the initial big listings. Full time team was wasteful, especially when it could be done by fewer. (Mine is for $500/day as it’s for past and future work.. so over 160 days of work makes that $250/day for the work done. I got it done quicker, with fewer people, no need to pay me for a full year. Which I’ve told you and you repeatedly ignore as it doesn’t fit your agenda.)
I also didn’t like that he stated he got the Bittrex listing as a reasoning of why he should be paid (Gandalf did that and saying otherwise was bs). I also stated I would support his proposal at a later time (this was in March). Never once did I call him greedy and I didn’t kick him. The group stated they didn’t want to do proposals too soon as we needed to actually get some shit done first. It wasnt me scolding him, it was the group saying they wouldn’t support his proposal. That’s it.
He was kicked over a week later for not responding and starting a Steem witness where he started running the JS fork code and publicly asking him for a vote.
So please, get your damn story straight or stfu.
Its like you all live in your own little world of delusion. None of what you wrote matters in the slightest.
Id never support his proposal for the same reason i do not support Howo or Netousos or yours for that matter. The point is that his proposal was more reasonable then yours (although it should not have been supported) yet it was shot down.
In any normal work environment you would not even be considered for that job, you probably couldnt even apply since you lack qualifications for it.
But hur hur, Justines popular and its a closed group of people.
I got the whole story there. Gtg got it, Birdinc was involved somewhat. Sure. Who cares? I never mentioned Bittrex anywhere. Not an argument for you to get the 30k
Huh? There were proposals flying 2 days into the fork. Your buddy Netouso has 2 proposals for 500 HBD for "CONTINUAL DEVELOPMENT".
YOU VOTE THAT PROPOSAL!
and youre telling me with a straight face:
You dont find that hypocritical? Or its ok because he is your buddy and theres whales behind him?
You guys are turning HIVE into a cartel driven project. Its not as bad as having a lunatic in Justin Sun at the helm but it aint great either.
The reason my post got as much engagement as it did, and yours for that matter is because theres a huge part of the community that opposes your proposal.
You want to be about the community? Reduce your funding to something reasonable. Or you banking on a few folks from slack to vote you up and slap down anyone who disagrees.
Hey dipshit, coding had been happening for weeks. How do you think this chain got here that you go around bitching on? There were weeks of work happening before the soft fork, before the announcement etc.
No exchange work had even been started, as the dude just showed up. So yeah.. I didn’t think anything should be paid until some work was done.
As far as the rest, the only one doing any slapping is you. How’s it feel?
I guess you do eventually become like those you hang around with.
Then, based on your arguments, he should have been payed for the work he did, and not for 365 days in continuation.
If you dont think anything should be payed up front (oh, now its "some work" lol) then why are you voting both Netousos 365 day "continual development" proposals?
Just say it, its because you are friends, friends vote each other back and you got a bunch of friends.
Show me one friend of yours that will not support your proposal.
Maybe they exist although im doubtful. Im really curious about who that bastion of integrity is.
PS: Ill prolly stop now. People are getting tired of this and i think a lot have already made up their mind.
The goal was really to break this idea that everything is fair and good in the land of HIVE since we got rid of Justin.
The only way to stop closed cartels from forming, even though i would never consider the slack group malicious in any way, is by speaking up regardless of influence the group has.
Like you? I finally decided to meet you on your level. I don’t particularly like being lied about. And at some point when someone is lying and trying to drag my name through the mud, I’m going to meet them on their level. Maybe if you weren’t such a prick people wouldn’t respond to you as such.
Perhaps make your point next time based of facts. As it’s great to question everything and call things out.. but to lie, manipulate, twist and attack to make a story fit your agenda is not really much to be proud of.
Have fun out there.
I dont think me disagreeing with your proposal can be described as "hanging out".
700 hours, was it? Fact?
Im lying? Really?
Im the only one thats being honest with you.
Ah, he is not worth your time or energy kiddo. If he doesn't like the proposal, no one is forcing him to vote for it. Simple.
DPOS consensus and that is how it works. I state the obvious.
GIF created by @sgt-dan using [giphy.com]
Site accessed 7 May 2020
Civil discourse is great, isn't it? Disagreement is NORMAL and NEEDED in a decentralized world. But so is politeness and respect for someone with a dissenting viewpoint.
I was simply saying she is courageous in the boysy crypto world. NOT same as saying she gets paid cos she's a girl. Read again. I think she - and others deserve to be paid for an excellent job which has already borne measurable results, and will continue to do so. Results that have saved the community a small fortune and which will enable us all to excel.
Her having or not having courage has nothing to do with crypto being or not being a "boys world". There is a fair amount of women in crypto in important spots. Ciara Sun is an example. Our two biggest influencers on Hive are women.
If anything its easier for a girl to get noticed because of the significant presence of incels in crypto, especially on twitter, which some women do take advantage of some times.
Neo-feminist nonsense gets on my nerves.
Go see which tweets tend to get the most upvotes from female crypto influencers.
Id sooner say Justine is courageous to write the proposal she did asking for 30k then for being a girl in crypto.😂
Hey there Belemo, hope you’re well. I’ll try to answer these the best I can even though I’m a bit confused how anything about my proposal could cause hurt and outrage.
I actually know you from the comedy openmic group on Steem.. you may not remember, but that’s where we first met. I did a few submissions and helped judge a few times. And no, I’m not a big deal in the slightest. Just someone doing random stuff all over.. mostly just trying to have some fun.
As far as your questions, I’ll try to answer them one by one but first want to clarify that my proposal specially covers negotiations and closing of deals with exchanges, as well as a planned initial PR campaign I carried out, starting as early as this article dated February 24th, which I helped coordinate and write.
I don’t want to focus on too much of the PR aspect as my proposal focuses more on the exchange deals, but feel its important as the narrative is apparently that I’m being asked to be paid for things that individuals did for free.. and I’m not.
You see, that article was before any #steemhostiletakeover twitter storm was launched. That was the first article that was important to tell the community’s story. That article was planned a few day’s before the SF happened, as a type of security measure. You see I know how Justin Sun works, as I’ve watched him in the space for nearly two years. I know when he wants to take something over or bury his wrong doings he simply uses his stage to out perform his foe in the media and essentially drowned them out, as they are unknown. One example of this would be pop network - a project he kicked off Tron as it would compete with dlive. He didn’t even get criticized for these moves though, as no one knew about them.
So when I was told there was a part of the community that was going to fight back against his attempt to force migrate the community to Tron and was asked to help, I formulated a PR plan that ensured it would not go unnoticed. I knew all I had to do was get the community’s story out there, get people to see it and the community would do the rest. Why? Because this community is badass.
I worked with Brady from Coindesk, who I knew previously and had worked with him on Steem coverage before, to ensure the story was heard. We worked on a few on the initial articles together and I set up interviews for many etc from the moment of the HF (hostile takeover) to the launch of Hive.. my goal was to help give the community the eyes they would need and the community would do the rest. My initial work on the communication/PR side lasted a few weeks, starting in February and then the community took over.
I’m saying this as at no time have I ever stated the community played no role or that somehow they didn’t matter. In fact that’s an outside narrative saying that and it’s getting old. As you can see my actions have never gone against this community and I’m sick of all of a sudden being accused of such.
After I had achieved what I set out to do - ensure the community was heard, I was done. I had no intention of doing anything else in the slightest in regards to behind the scenes launch for Hive.
Then I had an old contact pop up from Binance (I explain this in my post), and then decided that if I had the opportunity I needed to get them to stop their role in the takeover. I worked with them to stop voting witnesses and power down. This then started the conversation about trying to get them to list HIVE (this was in early March).
I was then asked to help with other exchange aspects, and immediately starting filling out applications, working on legal aspects, gathering relevant information to fill out multiple 20 page exchange listing applications and helping where I could.
We had a bump in the road with exchanges and that led to some issues between individuals involved and communication not being clear, individuals not working in the best interest of the community. At that point is when I took over negotiations. This was in mid March.
From there I spent every day in a multiple chat rooms with exchanges working through all aspects of listing - applications, code audits, legal memos, marketing planning and then of course, negotiations.
It’s common practice to pay for exchange listings in this space. They can range from 50k - 1M. The starting place for some we were involved with was 500K. Others 150K. The individual working on exchanges suggested this amount be paid from the DHF as it was normal practice and “we will return more value than that just by being listed”.
Many of us thought that was an outrageous amount and refused. They said “Well that’s what we charge.”
Some communication stopped after that and we continued to push the community story while pointing to the volume on Bittrex. I worked with many of these exchanges daily negotiating to try to get them to see the value. I worked them down to eventually a free listing and a giveaway to their customers/users. I did that. I was the one in the room negotiating and closing deals. At no point have I ever said the community didn’t play a role, but I was the one in that room and I was the one working day and night on that deal, me. Am I the only one who played any role in the listings, nope and never said I did.. but I closed the deals I mentioned in my proposal and that’s the reason for it. So I guess I’m a bit confused why the idea that somehow I’m taking credit for what the community did, and many comments of “well I did as much as her”.. I find that a bit insulting to be honest.
I never took away from the community’s role in anything, please stop trying to take away my role.
Now as far as your questions -
Sure let’s be real here, many people here don’t like me. I understand that I perhaps have some big votes behind me when I post, but if you look at who is supporting my proposal or vouching for my work, they don’t even like me and I’ve had bad history for many. Why does that matter? Because it’s about my work, which they witnessed, and not about fucking liking me.
So yes, without a doubt if someone was in that room busting their ass like I was since February, yes I think they could see a proposal for that work approved.
Yup, I am voting for other core team proposals and will vote for hopefully the future ones coming, as many people busted ass to build the core of Hive. And I think that’s something that should be paid from the community fund, as we don’t have a Steemit inc dumping 800k a month to pay their devs anymore, we have to pay our own. I think $100k a year is a damn good deal. Feel free to look up some average salaries for blockchain tech.
Depends on their contributions. Were they also posting often and being voted by many stakeholders for their efforts spreading the word of Hive? As there was quite an effort to support those doing so, by many.
I support anyone making a proposal for contributions they did that improved the ecosystem, that’s what it’s there for. Then consensus decides if they agree with that value.
I don’t believe tweeting alone would have gotten listings, no. I don’t think tweeting alone would have gotten Hive the news coverage it did, no. I do believe, 100% that our community is what gives us value and with the right tools and the right stage, they shine. My attempt, as I stated, was to try to set the stage on the Pr aspects. The community response was a huge part of the success of Hive.
But I think you are missing a major aspect of what getting an exchange listing entails, and as much as I think the community played a huge role.. someone also had to do the administrative work, legal work, and negotiating. That wasn’t done through tweets.
Also important to note that no part of the proposal payment is guaranteed, many fall out of funding and end up “partially funded”. I also am continuing to work on additional exchange listings whether funded or not.
Nope, and I never implied as much. Do I think I am the reason that we eventually got free listings when others wanted to pay? Yes. Do I think some would have gave in eventually, maybe. All I know is where we started and the intense negotiations that took place. Do I think public pressure helped with that absolutely. That was the goal.
I think I’ve answered this one a few times so I’ll clarify my quote you shared and what led to this question -
“ But with some ingenuity from the group as well as showcasing the power of the community and our story, we were able to satisfy legal requirements as well as show why no centralized company was needed.”
You see Hive is a fork with no entity or company behind it. It doesn’t have its own legal memo to show legal proof it’s not a security. It doesn’t have a CEO to take liability. It doesn’t have a code audit etc.. this was a huge hurdle to get listed. In fact it was a total roadblock. Luckily while working with Bittrex, Netuoso came up with an idea that helped us get through that roadblock and move forward. It was a way to use the Steem legal memos (since Hive was a fork) and a legal doc from another chain which Ruled that a forked token with the same economics (like our exact fork) fell under the same non security as the predecessor chain. The combination of these two docs is the only way we got listed on the big exchanges, as they legally require these things. I don’t think tweets could have done that.
So, I’ve never once said the community and it’s efforts did not play a role, I’ve said the work I did was completely different.
I understand that a certain individual has an X on my back and is spreading a narrative, and I guess I’ve had enough of the bullshit. My proposal outlines my contributions, that’s it. It’s not taking away from anyone else’s. Individuals can vote it or not, I’m not pushing anyone to.
But my proposal is not about “tweets” or “getting the word out” it’s about saving the community hundreds of thousands of dollars in listings and doing the intense labor needed to accomplish it.
If someone feels their contributions need compensation, they can make their own as well.
I will say the response is a bit interesting. We pay authors 20k, 30k etc which they pull out of the ecosystem and their contributions are their posts. When we have people working on core code or aspects that help the whole hive platform.. we think they should do it out of the kindness of their heart.
I’d much rather shit post and get paid.. you can see I didn’t do much of that the last few months, I was too busy doing the aspects I described above.
If people want to insult me, fine. My actions are what they are and I stand behind them. I’d love to be able to show “proof” by sharing all chat logs back to feb but that would probably lead to delisting and possibly ruin relationships with future exchanges, as they required me to sign a NDA and don’t take too kindly to corporate negotiations being made public.. which is sort of common practice everywhere else in the world.
I have witnesses to my work, I have a paper trial many stakeholders have seen and I’m standing behind my actions and will work harder to somehow find a way to be transparent and open in communication with the community about each task, without negatively affecting the relationship between Hive and exchanges. I’m currently attempting to find the best way to do that.
Sorry for my novel, but I guess when ones on trial they have the right to tell their story.
Thanks.
Comedyopenmic? Wow. I miss the good old days. I'm sorry I forgot you from the discord server back then.
Well thank you for taking out time to answer my questions honestly, and I appreciate the long form comment, it satisfied all my curiosities so far. Sorry I have one last question;
I'd like to add that I have nothing personal against you and I just needed clarity on this topic because I'm emotional about this place.
I don’t take it personally and appreciate the questions for clarification rather than running around spreading rumors due to another agenda, like others are doing. So thanks for taking the time to ask them.
I have been working on that this evening, trying to get some advice of how to do so. I need to review the docs and see specifics of what I’m not allowed to says and then perhaps can do some sort of GitLab with notes etc to show work as I go. Another idea from someone was some sort of person to “oversee” it. Which is fine, but I sort of thought the top 100 witnesses and stakeholders in a room where I was updating them along the way was someone over seeing me. Or the couple who saw every conversation real time who have come out to vouch for what I’ve said.
So I’m not sure if notes on a GitLab will be enough for people, but yes I’m trying to find a way to accomplish this, as I know it’s important. I just don’t know how to do it yet in a way that doesn’t compromise the community’s relationship with exchanges. But yes, I’m working on it.
Alright then. I'd rather not pry further considering it could be at the detriment of the community, so I'll just leave it here. You answered most of my questions and if your proposal gets fully approved, you'd of course be held accountable to it(particularly coinbase, Kraken and shapeshift where you didn't expressly give any affirmative indicator of results expected but considering that binance, Bittrex and the other 11 or so exchanges were in the first two months, I hope the next two months will see us listed in these more difficult exchanges as well)
With that said this was a productive conversation and I'll be looking forward to further update on every aspect of this work. I understand the NDA because I've been in a similar situation, and I hope you'll find a way to get around it.
I can tell you I’ve reached out to all those you’ve listed and then some. Birdinc actually forwarded an email from Coinbase after they responded to his one from March to another individual .. I’m working on doing the whole application process for all of them. My goal for exchanges has not changed and yes will be pushing for the many bigger ones. Of course this is more difficult as we didn’t even see STEEM on them, but that’s my goal.
If my proposal is approved, it can be unvoted at any time. So if I’m not seeing success etc, I can even remove it. I just can’t really even know how it will go.. but yes I am continuing the same effort and hours of work going forward to accomplish the goals for Hive.
Thanks for the conversation. Have a good one.
You too Justine. 🤝
jesusjesus, i hope you learnt your lessons,
if
not....
I'm just going to say great post and I loved all comments I do love seeing what's going on 👀
( I'm upvoting this comment so people can see please do the same)
I'm on a blacklist
I can't appeal against plus this was with account
source @hivewatcer
Well that escalated quickly. I have voted @justineh's proposal and here is my reasoning. There is an old proverb from The Book...
James Weldon Johnson. (n.d.). AZQuotes.com. Retrieved May 06, 2020, from AZQuotes.com
Web site: https://www.azquotes.com/quote/523891
I am a former Lay Baptist Minister, and current Internet Ordained Rabbi. If G-D thinks she should get paid, who am I to say different? I may be a mean ass honey badger but, my arms are too short to box with the Almighty!
Oh well, how can I argue with the good book.
I dont see how that's any different from someone coding in features. Having exchanges to trade hive is more important than any single feature added recently. There's no point to hive if you can't trade it,
I personally support a proposal for this but I think it would be more fair to pay every major contributor to the creation of hive and the battle against the hostile takeover(perhaps on a longer term not to ask for a really high HBD amount/day). Especially when the amount requested is about the same as the average wage in the US. ( I used the US because HBD is based on USD)