Can we Lose the HIVE Voting Window?

in LeoFinance7 months ago

What is it good for.., confusing newbies, advocating apathy by use of auto-voters, I mean… why does it even exist?

It’s gone on the LEO platform and things are thriving on there as far as I can see so why not follow suit and maybe we can have a rising token price instead of a terrible 11c static one?


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This is not the reason of course for the almost all-time low price, I personally think the last fork did not do it any good at all.

Not for what it did but for the user experience we all had to tolerate for weeks. Old-timers like me know it's going to fix itself but how about new people?

They will walk away saying, 'that HIVE thing doesn't work'. However, this is not a gripe about the necessities of the last fork. I know it was needed and was creating a base for more exciting things to come.

When I joined (STEEM), the voting window was different, and on a 30-minute timer. Then it was 15 minutes, and now it's 5.


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...'@grindle has a hard time picking up how HIVE works, it would be great to explain it simply but due to The Window and The Curve I have a hard time doing so'...

That doesn't make it any better and how the fuck am I supposed to explain how all this timing at 3 or 4 minutes to maximize how your ROI works to someone like @grindle who has just become a Dolphin and asks me, 'so what do I do with my 5k now then?'.

If I could explain to him, your stake size determines your return based on your vote weight (which is still confusing as fuck to non-HIVE people), it would make things a little easier.

The auto-voters? I use them, and I don't intend to be hypocritical about their use. They promote laziness but you have to understand I can't spend 6 hours a day manually reading and curating other’s work.

I do manually curate but I only have so much time. Time to me is the ultimate precious resource. We never get enough of it and I cling on to what little I have with a ferocious passion.

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The Curve

The curve has also been made extinct on LEO. I was never a fan of it and would love to see it go the same way as the window.

Would it encourage comment farming and small vote farming again? Yes, I believe that was one of the reasons for bringing it back again.

I miss the days when I could determine my vote on a post whether the current reward was 2c or $3. This is another one that is too complex for newbies to get their heads around.


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...'simple isn't it? get your post over $2-$3 and you get even more.. as clear as mud to most'...

Simple is always better, it’s already too complicated to start with.

I have been involved with anti-abuse for over 2 years on HIVE (STEEM), and will be more than happy to contribute my down-vote stake combating abuse if the curve was to go.

Discuss people. Should both the Window and the Curve go? If you don't understand what I'm talking about, then lucky you… just keep on posting.

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Yeah, the curation window has always been a bugbear of mine. It actually pushes people away from manually curating. What's the point in finding a good post that everyone already has voted on knowing that you get the shittest returns for voting at the end. And who the fuck can find new shit within 5 minutes of it being posted. Nuts.

And the curve, well intentioned that it was, killed engagement. Killed it dead. Which I feel hastened the ghost town effect.

But the worst and it's the one you have picked up on is the UX on the site in the weeks preceding the hardfork and the weeks after. It was a long time and people were just meant to suck it up. That's not how it works. For me it was one in a long line of changes or lack of changes towards the user that dulled my interest. I haven't quit despite not posting for a while but the endless fucking about to the detriment of ux is ruining the place. I have posted through thick and thin, low price and high but what is the point in posting if actually posting, commenting and voting becomes a laggy error-prone hassle, sometimes it's all just a bug-ridden nightmare. Given that my job is in the area of test it particularly grinds my gears.

Don't even get me started on switching the nodes. How to explain that to a noob!

Lol, rant over.

I did wonder why we were not getting more Huel posts, but didn't go as far as DM'ing you. All the node switching seems to have gone but it was annoying and did it lower the token price?

I think it may have had an impact, you said it yourself.., it 'dulled your interest'.

The curve did kill engagement. It benefits me, but I would still do away with it. A higher token price is better for all of us.

Totally. In our current form it's just not appealing to users. It still takes too long to register votes and refresh reply feeds and other things. If its hard to use, people wont bother. Apart from the folk who are desperate at any costs for money and no offense to a lot of them but there are only so many I woke up and brushed my teeth and tried to tell the village/my friends/my school about hive posts that anyone can take. :O)

I agree. Remove the 5min window replace with a 1 day window, make curation flat (equal cut based on stake for voters inside the window) - remove the curve that hurts comment voting. Those two things right there will make this place night and day.

1 day window is too much.

I disagree. Manual curation gets the edge with 1 day over auto. I imagine, you wake up and every day you get new content you can vote without worry of being penalized for voting too late. With a flat window, every can vote freely when they want inside the first 24 hours.

manual voting should never get penalized.

So, after 24 hours the curve would then apply like normal?

Can we go back to the 24hour payout and 30 day payouts?
I might go for a one week payout and 30 day payout.
I liked that schedule better.

Maybe you can mention these things in a forthcoming post? People tend to listen to you.

I have talked about it recently in a few post. Ill keep on about it.

Visit my blog please

5 or 15 minutes is irrelevant for manual voting as you are unlikely to even see a post in that time, let alone read it. We need some system that gives less advantage to auto-votes. I am not against people using them, but they do not get rewards where they are earned with good content. I get some votes on my posts within seconds, so those people do not seem to care about curation rewards. My voting is mostly manual as I can use up my VP easily on comments and the posts I enjoy.

!BEER

You don't fall in with the many @steevc. I would like to know from someone who has been here forever, just why the window was invented and the reasons for it. I can't think of any advantage of it's existence.

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It was originally invented to incentivise manual curation. It was envisaged that hundreds or thousands of engaged users would be finding good posts and those that voted early got bigger curation rewards when the larger accounts voted after. It gamified it also.

Then they changed it down to 5 and after that I didn't have a clue wat it was for.

Hundreds or thousands, now that is a dream I would love to be realised! Yes, I remember 30 mins, everyone stayed away until 30 minutes and 1 second.

It was kinda ridiculous, the tense wait till that time to see if you actually got any votes. ha

I think the genesis was to slow the 6.5 day cherry picking votes that was a thing when I came round.

Aha! Who’s who of hive have spoken here! First to Dan’s point on 1 day window... see how late I am reading and manually voting? 1 day is cool. No day is cooler. Flat curation is the way to go. If you want game... play Pokémon! :)

But jokes aside that is only part of the problem. There are others. Mainly, who out there knows about hive? Why they should? Just tweets are not enough. We need a full blown marketing campaign.

Need other incentives too. I have some hive. I love to buy some more. But why would I do so? Someone must come and convince me..... that’s all I am saying.

If you want game... play Pokémon! :)

Agreed, though I'll leave Pokemon to my daughter, I prefer Ni Nu Kuni which is only slightly better.

We need a full blown marketing campaign.

There could be funds to do it (if voted for), but it needs somebody to do it and do it right. Who can be trusted to take on such a role? Advertising is expensive and if it is funded by HIVE that would put further pressure on the value of the token.

We have been down this road before and it wasn't pretty.

I love to buy some more. But why would I do so? Someone must come and convince me..... that’s all I am saying.

The return is incredible, but how low can it go? The psychological barrier of a single unit (<10c), I feel is there now.. but for how long?

Who can be trusted to take on such a role?

You?

But you must find professionals.

I discussed this with @blocktrades and @crimsonclad, who does digital marketing as a profession and offered advisory help.

Write the proposal and we will fund it. I trust you with the money :)

I am honoured that you thought of me, truly.. I am to be trusted with something like that but it's not within my skill-set and way outside my comfort zone.

I'll chat with you further in DM's.

Skillset is not needed. Time is needed. You will hire skillset with money :)

Yup, I only joined this site, to share my urban exploring adventures with other folk.

I have just read @slobberchops above post, and I really don’t have a clue what it means. This is no disrespect to anyone on the site.

I am though bemused that a single pic I posted of a toadstool, earned me a bigger reward than some of the lengthier uploads I have done!!!

Makes me wonder why put in the effort?

I am though bemused that a single pic I posted of a toadstool, earned me a bigger reward than some of the lengthier uploads I have done!!!

It's not about what you write, it's more about people's moods to some extent and who sees what you are writing. If I re-hive your post, a certain big stakeholder will see it as he follows me and does not follow you.

Why he doesn't follow you, I don't know. I generally re-hive your better efforts so that's my way of quality control. Re-hiving too much is frowned up so I don't do it with all of your posts.

I have just read @slobberchops above post, and I really don’t have a clue what it means.

This points out my problem with all this complexity. If I said to you, 'the more powered up HIVE you have, the more HIVE you will earn by voting', that would make some sense I hope?

How about, 'well it's based on a curve that grows more in your favour as the post gets more votes so voting when the post has a reward of 20c and having less than 5 votes will give you more HIVE, oh and don't forget to wait until the post is 5 minutes old to vote'?

Makes lots of sense right?

I guess I get it

But the whole concept is lost on me. I am not a “voter” so having a high HP is of little value I guess.

Tbh I don’t have the time to search for stuff I want to see, other than UE andtravel photography nothing on here is of interest. ( kwik save excepted!).

This is no disrespect to others who post stuff, that others seem to enjoy.

I only vote a couple of times a week when I upload my work, so potentially my vote is worthless! Both to me and the author?

If that is the case, you might want to delegate some of your HP to make it work for you. @curie will give you a weekly return, both @ocdb and @curangel a daily one, but I would probably hand it to @leo.voter right now to gain daily LEO tokens. LEO is hot at the moment so earning passive LEO is decent idea.

If you don't know how to delegate, give me a shout. Keep some HP for yourself, as you will run out of RC's otherwise. (Yes, I know... what the fuck is he on about now!).

https://hive-engine.com/?p=balances&a=grindle

See.. you already have a little LEO.

I understood the bit in brackets 😂
See leotokens this is quantum physics to me, I shall just wait til HP, is massive then convert to dosh methinks!
On OB.ST. I was recently asked to help them trial a new system on photo management, I replied to the webmaster that I take pictures and was totally fucking useless on all things IT related.
He replied “ that’s why I have asked you, if you can get it everyone can”
Ffs!

that’s why I have asked you, if you can get it everyone can

LOL, you are doing OK. Most people wouldn't have persevered with HIVE, but you did (with some poking at times).

Hmm!

Agree, it doesn't really make any sense. The premise is that people use all their time gaming the system instead of just voting for things they like.

People will always try and game it, that's humans for you!

They will indeed, but the underlying argument was that it would promote something good. Instead it sort of leaves normal users in a less favorable position.

There's a window? Never knew that and don't really care to be honest. Just post content and like stuff. I don't have time to figure out all that pish.

You should not need to know about it. If it didn't exist that would be one more unnecessary thing to think about.

Wow that´s a lot of engagement here. I agree with your idea and most of the comments here. I use autovotes too but removing the voting window and making curation flat would definitely help make our chain a better place. Hope your proposal will be taken into consideration in the next HF.

The curve would work well if more were out consuming and manually supporting contributions but the five minute window encourages automation. The two don't mix.

At the time before the hardfork that brought about these changes, the culture here needed to change, drastically. The current reward curve made sense. It was there to penalize self voting low effort bunk. The free downvotes might not have been enough to stop it. Now the culture has changed, members act in ways more in line with the spirit of the EIP, in most cases. In some cases the free downvote acts more like a deterrent and does not even need to be used in order to combat abuse/exploits, it's just there, and people know it's there, so they calm the f@ck down.

Maybe now is a good time to take the training wheels off. I know I don't like being penalized when rewarding commentators, especially now with LEO and potential future operations sucking in consumers with rewards. As an independent, I need to be able to compete with that.

I remember the curve arriving and comments decreasing by 80%. It sucked, and even the Dolphins were struggling to have enough VP to give out a 3c comment vote. Now you need to be an Orca to do it.

It was there to penalize self voting low effort bunk.

Now that @arcange has made his HIVE-SQL free, we can easily find this shit. I know @abh12345 knows how to do it, as he's provided me with data before. It can be managed by people here who know and give a shit about quality vs milking.

LEO and potential future operations sucking in consumers with rewards

Don't get me wrong, I like what they are doing.. but is that why everyone is flocking over there? While it may be great, people should stop bashing the utility token, it can be fixed.

Without the Hive token working as it does (plus a few minor improvements), most communities won't even be able to get off the ground. People do tend to follow the money. Subtract Hive rewards from the equation. How well will community x do if their local token is only worth .0002? Removing the Hive reward pool and the layer of protection it provides basically sets up most other communities to fail, since people can't start small, then grow.

If LEO gets wrecked and working for LEO is the only option (no Hive reward pool), that community dies. With Hive reward pool working as a layer of protection, if LEO gets wrecked, it can still rebuild, since all is not lost.

I'm not one for doing away with HIVE rewards, though I know some want it that way and want HIVE just for witnesses. What does that say to the rest of us?

I hope LEO does not get wrecked. I am taking more interest in the tribe-tokens than 6 months ago. Have you noticed, LEO seems to be pulling them up from the mire?

What does that say to the rest of us?

That they have no interest in this project.

LEO should do fine, provided they manage to attract dedicated paying consumers.

Someone pinged me and mentioned I should jump in - I'm personally in favor of removing Hive rewards someday - but someday is the operative word.

Hive is nowhere close to being ready to make the leap to either first or second layer tokenized communities.

Being so heavily involved in building Leo, I know the potential of tokenized communities. Are people attracted there just for the money? Some. But I would argue that the majority are attracted there for the engagement, development and enhanced sense of community. @taskmaster4450 would have plenty to say on the topic of better engagement on LeoFinance. @abh12345 also did a post recently showing LEO as the most engaging app on the chain.

Hive is a wonderful melting pot but that also comes with its own set of issues. A lot of butting heads disagreeing over the most unproductive things. Adding to the discussion of removing rewards - many argue that disagreement over Hive rewards is why they should be removed entirely. Since not everyone will agree that x picture should earn more than y 2000 word blog post.

As an investor and power user of the chain, I just want this place to succeed. Lots of issues need to be sorted before that happens and with LEO, we've built a place where we can just develop, reward content we like and leave the bullshit at the door. Everything we do is stored on Hive. That said, many of us are focusing less and less on the HIVE we earn and more and more on the LEO we earn.

To @nonameslefttouse's point, it will take 100 communities/apps like LeoFinance and a much better tokenization engine to even start the real discussion to remove Hive rewards.

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many argue that disagreement over Hive rewards is why they should be removed entirely. Since not everyone will agree that x picture should earn more than y 2000 word blog post.

Would be a shame if that's the reason. I've been in those situations before. Someone complaining about how I only wrote 200 words. The included image/digital artwork took several hours to produce, of course, and showing that image would be the main point of the post, not the words. People not being able to comprehend what they're looking at shouldn't be the ones calling the shots, ruining the experience for everyone.

I was gone for awhile, came back and noticed the art scene died out a bit. Plenty of folks were getting downvoted for being successful, doing a good job, or earning on a platform that pays people. "You're earning too much," they'd say. So these artists just go tokenize their works and sell them now for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars, on another platform.

So the folks who thought people were earning too much not only chased away content creators, but they also closed the door to all of the outside money consumers like to spend on something like art or entertainment in its various forms. Close the door to those consumers, the rest of the businesses (like yours) lose out on potential spill over. Folks are often looking for investors in the Hive token; I've been pointing out for years how those consumers are often ignored, yet that's the largest potential market of investors any cryptocurrency could ask for.

Hive is like a mall; LEO is one of the shops inside the mall. The mall dies if only one or two shops are open, so I agree with you 100% when you say we'll need far more shops/communities/businesses thriving before even considering ditching Hive's current capabilities. But even then, I'm thinking the next 100 shops/communities/businesses would struggle to get off the ground without Hive's main layer of support. I'd prefer to see the mall morph into a skyscraper; many shops, many floors, one door everyone must use to get inside.

Typically, in a mall setting, the security wants to kick out those chasing away the customers. For some odd reason, on Hive, with these strange disagreement with rewards disputes, the 'security' is chasing away the money/customers. I think her name is Karen. Should probably be fired.

P.S. You run a tight ship. Good job.

"I was gone for awhile, came back and noticed the art scene died out a bit. Plenty of folks were getting downvoted for being successful, doing a good job, or earning on a platform that pays people. "You're earning too much," they'd say. So these artists just go tokenize their works and sell them now for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars, on another platform."

I 100% agree with this. My personal belief is that we can't make everyone agree that some things are valuable and somethings aren't. To your example, a great artist might spend 5 days painting something beautiful, post it on Hive with a short caption and get downvoted because it's deemed "low quality".

Whereas the LEO equiavelent of an art community would see this post, understand the work that it took to create the art and reward it heavily in their native token. No Hive police to tell them otherwise.

"Hive is like a mall; LEO is one of the shops inside the mall."

This is a good example. They would indeed struggle to get off the ground without Hive's main layer of rewards - depending on how they operate. Though, if the signup process is easy and the "shops" are smart in how they market their token to new users, then I do not think it's impossible. The current state of infrastructure requires that users jump through a million hoops in order to get started. We've made a lot of changes to the https://leofinance.io homepage and "Get Started" process aimed at solving this issue specifically but this is no easy task and Hive's main layer of rewards definitely makes it easier to get off the ground.

"Typically, in a mall setting, the security wants to kick out those chasing away the customers. For some odd reason, on Hive, with these strange disagreement with rewards disputes, the 'security' is chasing away the money/customers. I think her name is Karen. Should probably be fired."

🤣 this is both true and sad. I hope it changes, but I won't sit around and wait for it either. The only thing I can speak for is that LeoFinance tries to invite people in as opposed to chase them away. No Karens up in here.

Thank you. My goal has always been to bring in thousands of new users to this blockchain ecosystem that I've been a part of for so long. 16 months of work on LeoFinance and we're seeing a lot of progress, but much work left to be done.

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it will take 100 communities/apps like LeoFinance and a much better tokenization engine to even start the real discussion to remove Hive rewards.

There isn't the audience for this yet. Finance is a broad subject, if I could do a 'LEO' in my own community which is the smallest of the small nothing would make me happier.

Yep, well it's up to us to make onboarding a seamless process and then do the marketing necessary to attract new users to those signup dialogues.

Metamask signups launched on leofinance.io last month.

This month we're launching twitter sign ups.

For Hive to grow, we need to actually focus on the outside as opposed to the continual insider discussions that continue to steal all the attention

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I've been on here for years now and I've not a clue what you're on about :) People are used to not needing to be experts to make the most out of social platforms. I think Hive et al will limit their appeal until they're dead simples for simpletons like I.

You were here before me! but.. I know what you mean. You don't need to know all about this stuff to write and earn some HIVE. You are testament to that.

as someone who does everything manually in here and remembers these kind of dialogs since steemit, i honestly don't know what i takes to change some of the aspects that lead to it (like the 5 minute window) We need to change mindsets, mindsets that want easy money and are a bit of lazy as well. go figure...

Let's make manual curation great again

I'm good with that. Really good. I think we ought to wrap the 'voting window' in 'decay voting' and flush them away.

How many of your 373 votes are from people that aren't here anymore, but just left their accounts on autopilot? How many witness votes are from people that haven't EVER logged into Hive? Decay voting is a huge drag on the system. Almost as big as timed autovoting to maximize ROI.

I know some of those 373 are redundant accounts. I'm not saying 'ban auto-voters', but that window is not an incentive to take in content after all those votes have already gone in.

'Wait and earn less' is a poor statement. We are all here for the money at the end of the day otherwise we would be blogging on Reddit.

"We are all here for the money at the end of the day otherwise we would be blogging on Reddit."

LOL no. Reddit is harshly censored. TenCent's stake has caused the CCP to rule with red pencil on Reddit today.

I could care less about my personal financial rewards on Hive. It is the most censorship and propaganda resistant platform I am aware of, so I am here. The tokenization makes propaganda more expensive than non-tokenized platforms, which drives it from here.

I wouldn't post on Reddit with your KB. Most non-tokenized platforms are as bad, or worse.

Yes, absolutely do away with the window...after a couple years on this chain I still have no clue what a “reverse auction” is supposed to be or why it should all happen in five minutes. It just means half the votes come at 3 minutes, the other half at five minutes and then basically forget it.

The curve? Burn it, baby! Dance naked around the fire! My vote should be worth what my vote is worth...not to mention $5 is impossibly high for most posters. I cannot control the power of those who vote on my posts or the value they vote for, so why do I have to feel guilty that they’re being penalized for curating my post when it doesn’t reach the arbitrary threshold?!

I think doing away with these two “proofs of tinkering” would go a long way to simplifying the rewards system.

If there's enough commotion made about it the witnesses may start listening. It's their choice ultimately what happens in the future. I would love to see them both go.

I agree things should be simple.
50 to author 50 back to the curator and no curve. The time window should be 2 days.
The curators shouldn't fight among theirselves.
I think twice before voting to a post that is already voted and I hate it.

Great post mate and I would have also added a call to drop the powerdown time to 4 weeks whilst they're at it!
Ww need a mix of people at the top of the chain. Not just techies. We need economists, graphic designers, customer care specialists, PR People, Marketers AND USERS!! It's unfair to blame the techies here, they created it but everyone has a specialist skill set and we need a mix to run the place.
I am always grateful for the whole shooting match but perhaps this is simply a sign of the difficulties associated with proof of stake and decentralises community.
"It'll be reet" ; as we say on the right side of the pennines ;-)

I wish my Urbex stuff got this much response, actually I don't! Is it time to market HIVE or is it still not ready?

Will it ever be ready for the masses, it's better but not there yet I feel.

The 4 week powerdown... YES! It worked OK on STEEM, it's too long at 13 weeks.

I don't even try to understand it because it is all Greek to me. I just do my thing and get my stuff and my comments out there every day. I do use autovoters because like you I just don't have the time to manually curate 100% of the time. It is nice being able to pick and choose what I want and knowing that my followers who post good content will be taken care of.

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Ya. I don’t understand most of the curation formulas either. Too technical for me to care so much about it all.

Too technical for me to care so much about it all.

I do but should all this technical mumbo-jumbo exist? I work in IT and prefer my solutions to be simple, so that when I leave the guy taking over doesn't have to de-cipher my work.

 7 months ago 

The curation window made sense when paired with the exponential reward curve; which is long gone. They work together beautifully; but neither makes sense without the other.
I'm still a little flabbergasted that wasn't obvious when we switched to linear rewards.

I guess this was the old days (2016)? I wasn't here to see it, one of my regrets.

I sort of understand the impact of window (or at least think I do). The curve I heard about but, thought I thought you get more if your post is over $20? Or is that something else?

Tbh, all this is only relevant if you want to maximise your returns on curation. Otherwise like you, I have a handful of people on auto vote then they just do manual curation when I get round to it, which isn't as often ad I would like.

What's going on at LEO? I heard its gone through the roof but I'm so ignorant about 80% of what's going on on Hive...

Just sell HIVE for LEO and that's it!

Also here's my small LEO upvote!

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I would like some of both. I want both to succeed, it's in all our best interests.

Same here!

The Curve evens out at $2-$3 I believe. I never tried to get my head around it as that was info for me. Get more than that, and you do better, less and you do worse than the old Linear model.

For comments, it's terrible as you can imagine.. hence the lack of comments on HIVE.

LEO is here: https://leofinance.io/

Have a look, it's more exciting over there but all finance related.

The 5 min window doesn't make sense. I like the idea of @theycallmedan, 1 day.

Good to see you commenting again, you should do more! Most of us are in agreement with this.. 1 day is enough to take in content generally.

commenting takes time I do not have, normally. I happened to see your post regarding the window and just wanted to add my support

Make it Simple.

50% no curve, no first voter advantage whatever. Because of the close to payout voting problem ( Day 6+), I would say the last 2 days are ok.

The reason for that, if you talk about hive (and yes that's complex to newbies), they say "nope" at this point you talk about the rewarding curve.

But they want also to know how it works and " is it worth buying hive?".

But they want also to know how it works and " is it worth buying hive?".

I work with people in IT and explaining all this blows their brains. What chance is there for non-techies to take it all in?

If I can't get them to understand how it works, then the latter question is moot.

agree, it must be super simple like 50/50. that's all no curve.

faster power down time, equal rights for readers with the bots (auto voters) and fk /fix the curve (economy?)and i'll come back to play.

The faster power down time doesn't seem to have hurt STEEM. Granted it's doing only a little better than HIVE (at the moment). Interesting to hear what would bring you back... your reasons are in line with mine.

Many kinds of bots are basically for abusing an open platform to gather tokens by doing nothing oneself. Greed is usually behind cognitive dissonance, where no rational explanation about possible harms does not matter. For example, a knife is good for cutting vegetables, but some people use them to stab other people.

So these programmed tools can be good in some situations, but it creates an incentive to stop communication with the community. Some are straight harmful, like this one person who spams warnings to comments for people he does not like, or thinks they are bad humans.

Basically you cannot stop the abuse, but most definitely they will ruin the system in the long run. In crypto world there are thousands of examples, where honest people leave and it becomes a cesspool of people tripping each others over.

When you say bot's do you mean auto-voters? I am not against these, but am against the voting window. If you have a bigger stake, then you get more tokens with your VP's.. but it need to be regardless of when you vote.

The old bid bots are gone, dead, long ago.

Autovoters are bots too, using a program to do the thing you are supposed to do yourself. Many people have become lazy and just want everything handed to them in a silver platter. People are free to use them, personally enjoy reading stuff myself.

damn that guy is so annoying. sometimes it amazes me that these people really exist. that sort of behavior really makes me question whether humanity is a dead end.

It's certainly worth bringing up for discussion and I think you've mentioned the major points, positive and negative.

A few more months watching LEO, especially if the price starts flying there and we should be able to see the good and bad (hopefully more good) and go from there.

LEO seems more exciting but doesn't suit my writing style. I can't and won't write about JUST finance just to get in on things. Yes it's an interest but are people writing about anything remotely financial to just be part of it?

I see a lot of doomsayers commenting about HIVE, including some troll that has commented on my post I see. If people don't want to be here then they can leave.

Something needs to change, I don't think the token will break 10c but I don't particularly want it hanging around at this value for the long term.

... but are people writing about anything remotely financial to just be part of it?

Yes, and there are a lot of 'meta' posts too - would be nice to have more general topics covered.

I see a lot of doomsayers commenting about HIVE...

Same, even if HIVE does become a utility token, I don't think it'll be worthless.

Next year! please?

Absolutely yes they should go. The only realy put a penalty on manual curation. The primary differnce between now and then is the free downvote pool we now have. This means abuse may not even spring up this time round since we have a way to fight back without draining upvote power like before.

Auto votes will happen regardless of any system you put in place. Put a timer saying you cant vote on the first x minutes of the post being up and the auto vote will just come in at said time pasts.

Auto votes are here to stay, all we can do is encorage manual curation and this is being penalized by the current curve and vote window system.

I can't remember which fork introduced the curve and down-votes. It may have been the same one. It was the curve, then it was linear, then it was the curve again. We are now going back to 2016 before either of us were here.

Most of us seem to agree that the voting window is bad, and many don't favour the curve. What will it take for something to change?

Likely a post by blocktrades or the hiveIO account asking the community as a whole what they want and if they want it removed, with large discussion and 2 DHF proposals one voting for one voting against the change and use that to gauge consensus.

Perhaps hive can try out leo curve rewards. And Maybe some tweaking of the system will encourage manual voting and discourage mass auto voter

I like what LEO has done. Whether it can be maintained is another question. The wLEO is another factor of it's success, despite the hack.

To be really honest as a newbie I find the blog-like format of really restrictive and quite boooring.

Are you using hive.blog or peakd.com, or even leofinance.io? It takes some getting used too.

Hive.blog...

hive.blog to me looks like steemit.com used to (before your time I know). Try peakd.com, it's got a different look but has more features.

Ok, cheers

Yes and yes .... stake is stake and should earn the same .... no gamification .... its a nice idea but always ends up abused

The only thing that should stay are downvotes and some extra time for them, to prevent last minutie upvotes.

Oh the downvotes must stay, without them abuse would ramp up, I think with them in place the comment abusers could be kept in line.

I think on Sportstalk you can upvote for 3 days only, then there are 4 more days left to find abuse and downvote. Was working well last time I looked.

This is even better!
A lot of time to keep people on the right track :)

yes exactly this, please eliminate the window and make it linear! Thanks fot the post :)

Hi...

It's been a few days since I opened my Hive account, especially to upload my videos on the @Threespeak platform where I hope to grow over time, since I love creating content.

I think it's worth giving the platform a try and instead of uploading my videos to YouTube, I prefer to upload them here first.

Of course, I hope at some point to receive the support of the community and to know if I am on the right track ...

Greetings💗

If you are new then stick to it. You are not going to gain a fanbase overnight, and it takes time. Don't expect too much and you may be surprised... and most of all don't compare your rewards with other posts.

Have to admit, I much prefer the Leo way of the curve/linear shit (that's my technical term for it). I like that it doesn't matter when I vote on content, I will always get the same return for using my stake without having to worry about the time I voted at.

In fact, I pretty much delegated/leased all my HP out to manual curation efforts seeing as I barely have enough time to comment anyway but on LEO, it seems more fun and engaging and I keep my Leo powered up to upvote comments too.

At least with a linear thing, those who just set people up on autovote at 3-5 minutes aren't given a massive advantage over manual voters and I think it also puts a lot of bigger curation accounts off as they know they won't get returns on a post after it's already been smashed with some autovotes after 5 minutes (with no comments because who can read, upvote, comment manually at 5 minutes on every post manually?)

Anyway, that's my 0.006 HP votes worth!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

I think it also puts a lot of bigger curation accounts off as they know they won't get returns on a post after it's already been smashed with some autovotes after 5 minutes

Yes exactly. Finding a flower post with 1 vote / $0.01 and giving it a full vote is more beneficial if you want to get the most from your gains. That is shit, and should not be the case.

Yeah that does sound like dog shit mate. Hardly curation at all and sounds like just gaming the system!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

Curation window
what is it good for ...

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

That song did cross my mind while writing this!

I love the Jackie Chan & Chris Tucker version of it, although the original is clearly the best.


Hey @slobberchops, here is a little bit of BEER from @steevc for you. Enjoy it!

Learn how to earn FREE BEER each day by staking your BEER.

If I could explain to him, your stake size determines your return based on your vote weight (which is still confusing as fuck to non-HIVE people), it would make things a little easier.

I still do not understand that, I am not much of a math person. I am not sure about the curve, I would like it to go away because it is difficult for me to figure out a comment vote amount and if it will pass the dust vote level. Fortunately I don't worry to much on that anymore with the help of dustsweeper.

I sort of understand the vote window, but it really does nothing at all. Auto vote systems are much faster than the average person, so yeah do a way with it. Who cares if a post is read before or after the vote. I am sure there are people like me that when they wake up they load their feed, scroll down vote then scroll back up and read the post. Get to the top reload the feed and see what new came in.

So yes the curve and window should go away.

That doesn't make it any better and how the fuck am I supposed to explain how all this timing at 3 or 4 minutes to maximize how your ROI works

I would just refer to it as poor behavior that should be discouraged.
Hive shouldn't be about maximizing roi, imo.

I am definitely with the lowering of the 20 hive tax.
I'd jump to 5, just to experiment.

I'm not in favor of doing away with the window, because it adds more to the game.

As for explaining it to the newbs, how more simple can you get than 'it pushes the buttons 'correctly' and it gets more munies'?
Let them learn like we did that hive is about more than just 'maximizing roi'.

Every minute of every day is dawn somewhere. If all people opened their feed exactly when the one post with a window arrived, then human attention being timed would matter. Thousands of posts arrive 24/7, and people open their feeds 24/7. WTF does the 5 min window do?

It makes it so only bots programmed to watch particular accounts can maximize ROI.

Insofar as it's possible, human interactions should be facilitated on Hive. The window almost requires that bots vote instead of people. IMHO little could be more degrading to society.

Since the value of the token and blockchain are created by the society that use them, every disruption, degradation, derangement, and deprecation of society reduces the value of the token and the blockchain. The window degrades Hive society and that reduces the value of the token because it reduces the value of Hive to the society of people that use it.

WTF does the 5 min window do?

Well, when you put it that way,...
I got no love lost on the curation roi maximizers.

Can we go back to the 24 hour payout window and the 30 day payout window, except make the 24 hour window one week?
I think that would help, too.

Fiscal prudence is not bad. Bad government makes unethical fiscal management profitable, which gives prudence a bad name because it does evil.

This is why base principle matters so vitally IMHO. Granular specificity regarding underlying mechanisms is not inconsequential, but makes dramatic differences which concatenate as layers of complexity compound effects on society.

In fact it is society which matters, and tokens are of almost negligible import. Tokens to enable commerce are infinitely mutable, as the diversity of altcoins reveals. Sadly, all such tokens are seeking to benefit society most in a legal environment that prevents them from doing so by maximizing the fraud perpetuating the power of overlords.

Hive is a revolution in a very real sense, and in that sense I consider the derangement afflicting it's speech of existential import, which is why I could not more strongly oppose curation rewards that cause profiteers to autovote vapid and disingenuous content because it is fiscally prudent to do so. Trending is not the worst aspect of this derangement.

User retention is. Such derangement deprecates society upon which all the utility and beneficence Hive's tripartite aspects produce, and this degrades all three. Of the three, it is society, the users, that matters most, because it is they upon whom the rest depends.

"If I could explain to him, your stake size determines your return based on your vote weight (which is still confusing as fuck to non-HIVE people), it would make things a little easier.

"The auto-voters? I use them, and I don't intend to be hypocritical about their use. They promote laziness but you have to understand I can't spend 6 hours a day manually reading and curating other’s work."

I don't think you view forthright speech as merely an investment vehicle. It's far more important than my financial assets IMHO, and I see that you generally speak your mind rather than pander, so reckon you also more highly value facts upon which your freedom and prosperity depend than on curation rewards.

Indeed, war profiteers reveal that propaganda and censorship are literally a matter of life and death.

This is why I have ever and always regarded curation rewards as both unnecessary and disruptive. Perhaps they are less obviously so than the blithe lies of Raytheon or Lockheed executives, but they are not less dangerous to society for being more cryptic in how they derange our speech.

I consider you a pragmatist, and were you availed a means of ROI for your investments that did not depend on how much time you devoted to consuming posts I am confident you would not undertake to blindly promote content with autovotes. @edicted has discussed how savings accounts could provide ROI without deranging Hive content, and allowing curation to become actual curation, rather than a vector for profiteering mislabeled as curation.

Curation rewards derange curation intolerably IMHO, and while they have rarely resulted in folks being functionally banned in a way comparable to what Twitter and their ilk have undertaken of late, it has happened, and almost worse, execrable content has risen to the top of trending for all the world to see, and avoid.

Hive is several things. A society, a token, and a blockchain. It is the first that the latter depend on for their value and existence, and one of the most important features of a society is the quality of communications it's members undertake. Curation rewards have degraded Hive as a society heretofore, and as long as curation rewards exist I expect that will continue. This puts negative pressure on price, which you care about.

I do not mention this because I seek to impel you to action. I would be best gratified if you were inspired to understand @edicted's explanation of savings accounts as a replacement for curation rewards, because I expect that if you did, you would strongly advocate for them, and when enough rational and pragmatic folks do, Hive will change for the better.

Thanks!

Thanks for continuing to make Hive awesome.