The War Within - Stupidity Or Ignorance?

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(Edited)

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I have been here for more than four years and even though I could go back- and forth for hours talking about the amazing things that I have witnessed, the wonderful people I have met and the outstanding opportunity people have to make a significant difference in their lives due to blogging and sharing content on Hive, the facts are that I earned almost three times more from LeoFinance in a month, and I have been using LeoFinance for two months in total.

Statistics doesn't lie and you can talk all you want about the distribution, how good things are on Hive for everyone and yada yada, none of that matters until you can actually prove that the things you say are accurate. The potential of Hive is awesome and we are currently moving towards new heights.

However, and this is not something I say to bash Hive or talk negatively about Hive, because Hive and LeoFinance is different from each other.. More importantly, there would be no LeoFinance without Hive.

Regardless of the differences between the two, it does not take away the statistics and it's impossible for people to not give credits to LeoFinance for paving the way for others. LeoFinance are leading people towards crypto, our beloved blockchain and into the Hive ecosystem.

  • LeoFinance brings people to the door.

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People who've been on Hive (Steem) since the early days can easily see how things are different in terms of distribution and rewards, but they can also see how important it is for the community to 'spread the wealth' and the importance of having good leadership. These things leads to good vibes and a healthy atmosphere.

I know at least a handful of users who knew these things on Steem and all of them worked hard to distribute tokens far and wide in an attempt to create a strong middle class to have a strong foundation to build upon. Most of the 'big boys' didn't care because they seemed more eager to fill their own pockets, because they realized how easy it was to earn a shit ton of money if they focused primarily on themselves.

We are used to see the same authors raking in rewards, growing their stakes and influence in a rapid pace and we are used to see circle-jerk, poor leadership and we are used to see how money steers people's intentions & actions. We are very familiar with greed and how it spreads like a virus.

I have tried for years to discuss things with different leaders and users who are in positions where they can actually influence others, but I have been rejected, ignored and many of the so called leaders was laughing to my face.

I was rejected, laughed at and ignored because I was a nobody with minimal stake. People listens to wealth and that has caused us a lot of problems over the years. Whatever idiot that comes around with "enough stake", can change the game entirely because the majority of people seems to care about themselves before anything else. We have seen that in the past, on more than one occasion. I won't go into any details about these events, but one of the most famous 'flag wars' in history on the blockchain is one example.

I know, I was not supposed to talk negatively about Hive, and I promise, I don't mean to do that, but it's actually very difficult to stay positive when you think about the stuff I've seen since the days of Steem, especially when I am very excited about LeoFinance and in some weird way are trying to defend LeoFinance due to some users who seems to be ignorant or plain stupid.

The saddest part of this, is that some of these people who're saying that LeoFinance is somehow bad for the Hive blockchain are within the top 20 witnesses on Hive(!).

I personally vote for 15 out of the 20 top witnesses and I am not willing to vote for people who doesn't seem to understand how important LeoFinance is- and will be for the growth and success of Hive. I don't want to support witnesses who doesn't seem to understand that LeoFinance is one of the ingredients to the success-recipe we've been longing for...

People have been waiting for tribes and communities for years and we have dozens already. Some are more successful than others, and LeoFinance happens to be the most successful one and we can see how LeoFinance is paving the way for others with innovative changes, updates and good leadership.

  • How is that bad for Hive?

I thought the whole idea with communities was to have 10, 20 or even 100's of 'LeoFinance' on Hive?

I wonder if these 'naysayers' are ignorant, stupid or if they see LeoFinance as a threat..

Honestly speaking, great leaders, which I personally think is what witnesses are supposed to be to some extent, posses a clear vision, is courageous, has integrity, honesty, humility and clear focus.

They should believe in teamwork. Great leaders help people reach their goals, are not afraid to hire people that might be better than them and take pride in the accomplishments of those they help along the way.

I thought my witnesses votes was at least decent, but I might have to take another look at them because hearing this recent bullshit about LeoFinance being bad for Hive makes me sick. It is amongst the most weirdest things I've heard in a long time actually. That something successful on Hive is bad for Hive..?

By the way being a top Hive witness and talking negatively about LeoFinance, that is a community on Hive. The most successful one so far. Doesn't that make you talk negatively about Hive as well?

This is why it is important to have great leaders and this is why it is important for stakeholders to vote for witnesses they truly believe in. We have tons of leaders on Hive and we had tons of leaders on Steem as well.. And I mean leaders as in people who can influence others.

The more stake someone has, the more influence they will have because people listens to wealth. People are also often steered by money and greed, so it's vital for Hive to have great leaders.


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LeoFinance has great leadership and it is easier for LeoFinance to generate 'buzz' and 'hype' compared to Hive itself for various reasons. The whole Steem-scenario is still haunting us to some extent but what I think is the biggest reason for it is that LeoFinance is niche specific while Hive is not. The competition between the active authors is another big reason for all the LeoFinance success-stories and all the hype around it.

LeoFinance has a fraction of the users that Hive has, which makes it a lot more difficult for authors to get recognition and exposure on Hive, hence making it difficult to earn rewards from their contributions.

Add the 50/50 rewards on LeoFinance on top of that, and you're starting to have a really good recipe for the success we see. That you can vote on content without having to compete with other curators over the best curation rewards are another factor that most likely plays a major role as well.

This does not only lead to more manual curation, which is a vital ingredient for engagement, it also leads to more content being rewarded, as curators are spreading their votes across the community, instead of feeding only a handful of authors.

So, while we see significant boosts in terms of engagement, we also see more users being rewarded, which leads to a better distribution of tokens and a healthier community. This is only possible due to the above-mentioned things, and this would not have been possible without Hive.

Is it bad to have a thriving community on Hive, where users are filled with motivation, encouragement, inspiration and satisfaction, and where users wants to engage and interact with others?

Is it bad for Hive that users on LeoFinance wants to be a part of LeoFinance and that they stay rather than give up after they have joined because they are not rewarded, or because they feel overlooked and ignored?

LeoFinance gives people a good opportunity to earn something extra, while Hive means a lot more competition and skewed distribution. It's obvious which door people will enter, but with time, things won't be easy on LeoFinance either.. It's the early days, and we all know how amazing those early days can be.

Don't diminish and take away all the good things LeoFinance has done and accomplished. It's good for all of us at the end of the day. It's good for the entire ecosystem.

If something, praise LeoFinance for the things they have done and learn from the community that is paving the way and leading us straight into the masses.

/Two cents from a nobody.

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In reality, its okay to see the dicrepancies with hive it shows the evidence of true decentralisation, nevertheless I don't think anyone will be too blind to notice that leo's impending explosion will affect hive positively. I still don't believe hive is the gutters we just need two or there good decisions. I understand how you mean. Money makes People move and sometimes it feels like the governance on hive might be its limitations. But then I have nothing negative to say about hive I believe you don't too, you are wishing things can even be better. In hive we have a working structure, we only need a few clinical moves.
Nevertheless, Leo rocks it for me by far the best thing to come out of hive.

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There are a few things I wish where different on Hive, and I think there have been a few mistakes made since we went from Steem to Hive. However, you can't change everything and anything in a heartbeat and it takes time to adapt, change and learn.

I believe we are moving in the right direction with Hive, but due to the recent "LeoFinance is bad for Hive" talks by people within the top witnesses, I'm actually starting to worry. The future might not be so bright for Hive as I first thought, if these people are that ignorant, childish, stupid or whatever.

Those statements make it clear to me that we are in desperate need of new blood within the top.

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(Edited)

Well I haven't heard these whispers and I definitely think and hope it's all just talk. Leo is great for hive, hive should be proud of what Leo has achieved so far.

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(Edited)

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More info why you see this.

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Thank you very much, I appreciate it! :)
(As you didn't use an image, I'll do that for you ;)

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You should bring back that toruk was here comment. It's dull without it. People disliking it are like these ones claiming that Leofinance is bad for Hive.

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I am shocked by what I read. You write absolutely correct and real things. RELEO :) Where did you see these statements against #leo?

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Can't we just be happy that one project that Hive made possible is succeeding in ways that help the blockchain overall? One good thing about Leo helping with the onboarding campaign is enabling more new users be exposed to other communities on Hive. New blood is necessary for the survival of our entire ecosystem and it's not like a single user can only be part of one niche.

I like how I get to choose between engaging with Leo community while still having my own business creating art blogs and other content unrelated to finance.

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New blood is necessary for the survival of our entire ecosystem and it's not like a single user can only be part of one niche.

That is very true. We need more people and we have always tried to reach the masses. LeoFinance does a tremendous job and we're seeing a lot of new people.. People join LeoFinance, but they are still on Hive.

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Well Leofinance attracts people that are interested in talking about cryptofinance or something related to finance in general. Hive has a lot of communities that have yet to reach the results Leofinance have achieved. If another community with a different niche succeeds and got their token rise in value, would they be also bad for Hive especially if they onboard new users into the ecosystem? I just don't follow with the drama going on. If Leo increases in value, that's good for Hive, it's not like it can exist without Hive.

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I don't see how having a successful LEO is bad for Hive at all? Makes no sense at all. It brings more users to the Hive ecosystem as a whole.

I also have seen what you have since the Steem days. It just seems like there's a lack of REAL leadership and direction or something. However, the mood and postings on Hive seem a lot better compared to the past and especially compared to what Steem now is.

Hopefully, things continue to improve. I know the Leo guy's will keep improving. I just wish the guys working on Hive had the same kind of drive and interaction with their members/followers/investors.

Time will tell!

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However, the mood and postings on Hive seem a lot better compared to the past and especially compared to what Steem now is.

Hive feels better nowadays and things are likely to be even better with time. I don't know if some people are dissatisfied because LeoFinance has the success they've always wanted for Hive or something... I'm not sure.

LeoFinance is probably the best thing we have seen since the birth of Hive..

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Yeah I agree. Hopefully we get more communities to bring that same kind of feeling.

Poor Hives market cap is in the well right now lol.

If they could get the damn SMTs and smart contracts up I think it would help a lot.

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I don't understand why a lot of people think LEO is bad for HIVE. on the contrary LEO helps HIVE to develop and grow like many other hive-engine tokens do of course.

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Exactly.. It's all crazy talk. It's like these people don't understand how powerful LeoFinance is, and how much Hive benefits from having a successful community.

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Ned could've walked among us as a god, he kneecapped us instead, but he had nice hair.

In the long game we should all win, if we stick with it.

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Ned was never the right man for the task, and truth is, that he plagued us with his presence for a very long time before people realized the poor leadership.

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He kneecapped us for not falling at his feet when he played his guitar.
I can see why he would do that.
It wasn't possible for him to be the bigger person.

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I have heard the whispers and seen the tweet but have not actually seen the statements yet that LEO is bad for Hive. I don't doubt though that those sentiments are probably real among some. There are those that have a hard time seeing others succeed.

I have had minor success on Hive/Steem since I joined in early 2018 (was recently approaching dolphin status). The last couple months I have been mainly focused on LEO. I am not a big finance guy but hearing about the comment engagement and the linear curation rewards had me curious. Add to that the start of the LBI project and I knew I had to get myself a decent stake in LEO. I have been beyond pleased with the results so far.

In the end Hive and Leo are inextricably linked so I really don't see the problem. I think Hive has a bright future and I will continue my support of the project, along with many others. I spent too much of my life with all the eggs in one basket not to explore all the different facets of the cryptoverse. :)

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I spent too much of my life with all the eggs in one basket not to explore all the different facets of the cryptoverse. :)

I can relate to that, and Hive along with the communities are perfect to give people more options.

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I thought about writing about this for a while, but did not want to go into public drama, because i think it is stupid.
I am here for almost 3 years, and if you check how much hive did i earn from author rewards and how much i bought, you will most probably see that i have no affiliation to anyone in this.

First, if we all are spending time on all of this, it would be nice to say the names of the witnesses that said that, and point to the place where they said that. Going on about this, with no names and reasons is just pointless.

I would like to see comparison of the top 20 hive and top 20 leo author rewards by authors in last (let's say) 5 months. how much people go in and out of the list? will it be that different in numbers?

Scale of the active users plays a big roll. I respect what onealfa is doing, but would he be able to do it with 20x of posts? if i am not mistaken he already changed his voting pattern because it is not sustainable for someone to manually curate 400+ users every day. could he do it for 4000?

Again, scale is everything. i don't say that Leo will not be able to find a way to deal with it in the end, but in December we had 200 new accounts, and what was the first problem? fake accounts farming the introduction posts. and that is just ~10 new accounts a day.

there was a lot of jabs ( a lot is probably the wrong word) on how leo is better then hive, and all of them are totally unnecessary and counterproductive.

My thought on Leo was, that most of the posts in that community should be quality crypto and financial posts, and of course some random post from time to time about how are we doing, stats and some fun stuff. And that is why i don't write there often. i don't want to shitpost about finance. I listened (probably) all leofinance videos and i could make 3 posts a week with leofinance announcements (because i am sure 20-30 people listen to that), but with my outside following (twitter non existent) i feel i am not contributing with that (yes i am most probably stupid because of that).

Now with the narrative of leo is better then hive, and everyone is learning on leo (and that could be true at the moment), you get more people from hive writing on leo, but most people can't write quality crypto and financial posts. And then you have an option to reward everything (and after a while you have the situation Khal was few weeks ago when he announced the change in his curation) or you just don't reward everything, and then you have a problem of "false advertising"

Then the narrative of we are better then hive has some other problems with new users. because then you say to new users, stay here, no need to look at hive. but then we are back on how many those new users can write good crypto and financial posts?
There should be an initiative to show new users that they could write about other things, most probably things that they know more about, and "make" them to go back to leo to read and learn about crypto and finance.
From my point of view, there should be more focus on rewarding comments on good posts, to try and make people to read and try to understand what are they reading. More people can make an good comment on something they read, then make a good post about the topic.

Some of those problems will probably be less obvious with "twitter like" short posts, as that is more for "everyday people", and it could be fun, interesting and crypto and finance related.

As i said multiple times, there should be more cooperation. People on leo should know about other stuff, people on pekad should know about leo, splinterlands should make blogging/vlogging part of their users accounts known (like 10% of people on splinterlands ever clicked a like button on the blockchain).
But it is easy for me to say that, as i have no "interest" in any of those frontends. So i could say we should all be friends, but i am not earning from someone using my service, and i also have no expenses of running the services...

Big respect for Kahl on his development, his drive and ambition to make something of this. He is doing a great job, at an very fast pace. And saying leo is bad for hive is just stupid. But also saying leo is so much better then hive could bite you/us in the ass when everything scales to the numbers that are not easy controllable. We already seen some problems and the numbers are still small.

I should have made a post with this, and earn some leo :D maybe some would read it :)

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Yikes, that's a wall of text.. You should definitely make a post! :)

Again, scale is everything. i don't say that Leo will not be able to find a way to deal with it in the end, but in December we had 200 new accounts, and what was the first problem? fake accounts farming the introduction posts. and that is just ~10 new accounts a day.

This is very true and also why you can't compare Hive and Leo. Hive has a lot more users and LeoFinance is niche specific as well. It's easier for people to get exposure and recognition on LeoFinance due to those things, but it will be more and more competition with time, so it won't be as easy going forward.

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commenting article-like deserves upvotes that are article like
I agree with your points and honor your self-reflection that:

But it is easy for me to say that, as i have no "interest" in any of those frontends. So i could say we should all be friends, but i am not earning from someone using my service, and i also have no expenses of running the services...

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well i do understand that i am in the different position from app owners. especially in the expenses department, as i have non.
i just find unnecessary and pointless to compare hive and leo. goal should be to get people from outside to use everything this blockchain has to offer.

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It's frustrating and a little bit weird, to be sure.

As much as anything, it makes me ponder whether we're actually looking at the "Achilles Heel" of decentralization, here... this slightly twisted reality in which there's actually very little leadership precisely because everyone is too concerned with their own little projects to be able to work together towards a "common" good that works out for everybody involved.

There are probably "Decentralization Maximalists" who'd argue against LeoFinance because it's not "really" decentralized because there's actually someone managing and driving the ship rather than an endless clusterfu*k of (non)decision making by committee. The thing about good and directed leadership is that it moves things along at a swift pace, rather than a snail's pace.

But I could easily get into an essay-length response here, so I'll stop now!

=^..^=

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Well, I think one can discuss and argue about centralization or decentralization for years actually..

I mean, are things really decentralized when stake is what decides more or less everything?

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Good points made here and i'm going to try not to fall into the trap of speaking too long on this because i've had this conversation many times and i can write an entire book on this. So i'm going to in a summarized way try to hit the important points.

Does Leofinance hurt Hive? How should we view it?

Leofinance doesn't hurt hive in that it is innovation and good competition within the chain to produce better products. However with that said i do believe there are many inaccuracies about how people view Leofinace. The first one being Leofinance success depends a great deal on standing on the shoulders of giants or entities much greater than them. So if you take something like Steem and Hive that have for years taken the frontal abuse of all the growing pains in these dpos systems. Economically and Marketing wise they have done alot for applications who startup on the networks. As to say many applications that came after the flagship applications on the Steem and Hive blockchains are the benefactors because of the sacrifices made by the early applications. However they have set the ecosystem of value making it easier for these products to exist. So yes in that sense Leofinance excells but only as a result of the past.

Again its so much to talk about in this comment so i'm going to keep it very minimal or try lol. Yes Leofinance should be defended. I in comparison to what i make on steem and hive is ridiculous. Leofinance in a short period of time has given me more value than steem and hive has given me since like 2017 or so. So i should be a defender of Leo? Yes and in many ways i am. The issue though is in being a junior economist i have to look at this from a scientific standpoint as well. Although it benefits me a great deal more supporting Leofinance but i think its important that we explore all info on the table so its more helpful to everyone in the future.

So the next part is Leofinance is still very small. What generally happens in smaller pools of distribution is you have better distribution. Even if you go back to the days of early Steemit i'm sure even when hive first started off with its main blogging sites people were doing fairly well. This is like the age old idea of Socialism works in small populations but not in large ones. So that being said i don't know if this is just a golden period for Leo that ends like most others or if its the start of something else we haven't seen before.

Does Leofinance in some way endanger Hive value.

Well here's the tricky part, i remember not long ago reading an article asking the question does Leofinance eat Hive's lunch? So it could be from the standpoint it would seem of some hivians that leofinance is moreso redirecting funds than creating new ones. if that's true then that would not so much pose a problem for the ecosystem as much as the hive stakeholders. So to illustrate Leofinance has kinda now created it's own set of whales if this is true. If this continues then it would mean in a sense the old guard on hive is now replaced by the new ones. I think thats the 800lb guerilla in the room. If you're that guy who's invested alot in these other dpos systems that were key in creating these value systems does it then for lack of a better word get usurped by some other application.

Now in all fairness it could be that Leofinance is pulling in more value. It's on ethereum thats another more valuable chain. So i think all that would need to be investigated and explored. Whenever there is a system in place i don't think it really matters where its at. It could be here on Leo. The bigger benefactors of the system often times like to remain that and not share in too much of any particular golden goose as it were situations lol.

My view is like if a system cost money to run and someone is sacrificing their own money to keep it running and sustaining than they deserve a certain amount of value for their contributions. So i got absolutely no problem with stakeholders and their influence.

I think though there is a broader issue outside of what just people may think about these communities. I think mechanically there are some issues that maybe need to be looked at beyond just the idea of is Leo hurting hive. Such as, in this blogging and social media this is sitll not only a new concept but its one that the world may never adopt. That is paying for social media. I know you all don't look at it this way. However purchasing tokens and these cryptocurrencies are necessary to sustain these networks. However how our social media has worked for the last 20 years is we never paid for it. I"m not sure thats ever going to be something masses of people get use to.

Also in the idea of influence and value which seem to follow one another. In one of the biggest sellling points of these dpos systems which was get paid for your blogs. if people dont get paid or they can earn based on merit then it goes back to something outside of realm of the most appealing quality of these systems. Unfortunately the idea of stay for a smaller community may not be a realistic point to draw people in. So could be that its many things inherently wrong in dpos itself that maybe needs to be looked at.

I think my biggest fear is when i see people in this space forego innovation and better products over money or their bags. This is an unfortunte thing that happens in cryptocurrency but doesn't really happen in a standard economy. To explain a product like Leofinace can be far better than other products on teh chain such as it is. However, the positioning of stakeholders will have them fight innovation and better products to keep positions and money and i've seen it time and time again. it is not a good thing because it stagnates the growth and development of this space. Yet it's never ending. I'm just going to leave it there i think you all see where i've went with that to connect the rest of the dots. I wish Leo good fortune it certainly has given me more than steem and hive and if these products serious about being this new way forward in blogging they'd need to make many changes. if i had to make a suggestion and i've seen products like this on steem that i felt didnt go as far as i believe they could have. An ai system that upvotes posts and to a great degree takes out the human element. So i believe there should be an ai that upvotes the post and i believe stakeholders should be bonded and the mechanism should push to balance a middle class. This is quite conceptually possible in that we're able to design any economy we wish, in the form of it not being an accidental or incidental economy.

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(Edited)

HIVE and LEO theoretically can't compete, they have completely different objectives. The first one is a decentralized layer 1 platform, the latter is a (somewhat centralized) 2nd layer token (HE SMT) & community. As long as these truths are not being skewed by people trying to shill/boost a token/project, all is well.

With this said: personally, I would prefer for projects to have cashflow business models that can funnel profits back into HIVE, to make the layer 1 more robust, in return for leveraging it to bootstrap their business; instead of creating a competitive token and displaying it more than once how much more $$$ people make with that token.

If people sell their HIVE for another token, that's not good for HIVE. If people are more excited to stake another token instead of HIVE; that's not good for this token. And right now, with 400 sats, I'd say we need more pure commitment to Hive; not less.

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I would prefer for projects to have cashflow business models that can funnel profits back into HIVE, to make the layer 1 more robust, in return for leveraging it to bootstrap their business; instead of creating a competitive token and displaying it more than once how much more $$$ people make with that token.

If people sell their HIVE for another token, that's not good for HIVE. If people are more excited to stake another token instead of HIVE; that's not good for this token.

I totally agree with these things you said, but we all know how hype and buzz works. I think people will invest in Hive with time as well, all due to the success of the communities. I also think it is likely for Hive to change and improve even more due to the success of communities.

Regarding the $$$, I would say that it is wonderful and the biggest reason for the hype around LeoFinance. People are rewarded more on LeoFinance, including myself, and that is something really, really cool. It shows that communities on Hive can thrive and that the value of 2nd layer tokens can have real value.

That being said, people selling Hive for LEO is far from ideal, and that would obviously end up hurting the value of Hive in the long haul, but I am very optimistic. I think everyone can learn something from the success we see with LEO, and I think LEO will benefit Hive a lot with time.

This is just the beginning, and there's a learning curve in everything we do.

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If people sell their HIVE for another token, that's not good for HIVE. If people are more excited to stake another token instead of HIVE; that's not good for this token. And right now, with 400 sats, I'd say we need more pure commitment to Hive; not less.

That's a short sighted view, IMHO. The more successful a 2nd layer project becomes, the more likely it is that the app owners/stakeholders in that project will want to also stake HIVE to protect their investment. There is no reason to lament some people who own HIVE swapping their HIVE for LEO.

There is no reason to create a conflict between 2nd layer apps and the base layer like that. It's completely counterproductive. I can guarantee you that once there are 100 thriving apps like LeoFinance on Hive, there will be buying pressure on HIVE as well.

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Your words made me change some views I had about hive.

You are absolutely right when you say that in hive it is much more difficult to have recognition, since there is a mafia or monopoly where only some are rewarded and others are not, also the success of leofinance should not scare anyone, just be happy because it contributes to the growth of hive blockchain.

And I think that the main leaders don't like leofinance, due to the voting system because no matter who votes, everybody wins exactly what they gave, I like that a lot because it promotes the creation of content and not a stupid voting race.

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Well, the thing is that you will have to create in Hive quality post on the right niche and that is how you get the recognition. My account is total baby (one week old) but I have started to get very generous upvotes. Even if things are good in Leo, I personally could not create there any quality content or thrive in that environment since It is not my niche. But I'm happy to hear that you are doing great there! I hope people will stop talking Bs about other communities since it's not productive and can be really harmful & toxic. Let's just be all friends instead ❤️

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