Power Cooldown

in LeoFinancelast month

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A lot of users get annoyed with Hive because of the 13 week powerdown schedule. Hive price can spike up but we can't sell tokens when we are 100% powered up. We'd have to wait a week to get liquid funds.

This is why LEO and other HE tokens have switched to a 4 week powerdown, which for the most part seems to work just fine. Personally I like the 13 week powerdown and think we should employ sliding scale governance so this number can be changed slowly over time, but that's a lot of work and potentially introduces bugs to the network without proper testing.

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I played a lot of World of Warcraft back in the day. Thousands of hours. Seemed like a huge wait of time in a lot of respects, but surprisingly I did learn a lot about economics (in game and otherwise) during my gaming addiction years.

Role Playing Games have a mechanic called a cooldown. Some abilities are too strong and if you could use them over and over, the game mechanics would not be balanced or fair. After using an ability, it goes on cooldown and you must wait a certain amount of time before that skill becomes available again.


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Rather than reduce the powerdown period from 13 weeks to 4 weeks for Hive, I've been thinking more and more about this cooldown idea. Why not just make powering down an ability like in these RPGs?

Instead of having to wait a full week to get 1/13th of our money, we could get 1/13th of our money INSTANTLY and then the ability goes on cooldown for a week. This could be an interesting way of changing Hive mechanics slightly so that users can provide some liquidity to a spiking market immediately, while still limiting a full powerdown to 12 weeks total.

Attack vectors?

@blocktrades is very much in play-it-safe mode. There are a lot of priorities for Hive and changing up the core mechanics isn't really one of them. If it's not broke: don't fix it. That's fine, I'm just throwing out ideas here.

Aside from the obvious possibility of there being bugs with the new system (even if it is pretty simple in nature), a change like this would result in an immediate 1/13 loss in stake every time an account got hacked. IMO this is an acceptable loss as 1/13th isn't that much and your account should never get hacked in the first place, but these things can happen.

There's also the issue of gaming the system by upvoting a bunch of stuff before powering down. You'd have a little bit more power on your upvotes because you wouldn't have to wait for the powerdown. Again, seems like a pretty small threat.

What do we gain?

Users feeling like they actually have access to their money. If the price of Hive spikes up they can make some liquid immediately and not get frustrated by a dip that comes before the money unlocks. This would add more liquidity to the market during periods of volatility than there would be otherwise; a big win for all parties involved.

In addition, keeping each powerdown at 1/13th of our total stack is very good for dollar cost averaging. It essentially forces users to not FOMO in or out of the market all at once. This is a big reason why I like the 13 week schedule: I feel like I shouldn't be selling more than that at one time regardless of the situation. Adding the cooldown ability makes this even better because we have access to 1/13th of our money at all times.

Just be more responsible!

There's also an argument to be made that no one should be powering up 100% of their funds to begin with. We should always have some liquid in case the price spikes and we want to sell a little. In theory, sure, but 90%+ of people in the world are bad with money, so that's just not a realistic expectation. Even I am 100% powered up because I'm in HODL mode, but it certainly would be nice if I could powerdown on demand like a skill in a video game.

Comments

What do you think?
Would you support immediate power-cooldowns?
Do the benefits outweigh the risks?

I think they do, but perhaps during the mega-bubble year is not a good time to rock the boat.

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13 weeks saved our asses from losing everything almost instantly when all that shit went down last year and we ended up here. There were plenty of emotionally charged powerdowns weeks before Hive even became a thing. A shorter period would have tanked the value of our old tokens before the people holding on with the wait and see attitude even got a chance to scrape a few pennies off the floor and bring them here. That action of moving funds from Steem to Hive helped keep Hive's value up and if there was a shortened period, it would have taken less than a month for HIVE to get rekt. HIVE dumpers off the start would have triggered more to dump, a chain reaction that would have led to us not being here.

After seeing 13 weeks in action, I see it as an insurance policy that protects my investment from even the tiniest rumor to the largest smear campaign.

Why not simply keep a week's worth of powerdown in savings rather than power it up?

There are plenty of other tokens out there that cater to speculators. If that approach is so goddamn appealing and good for crypto, why do so many tokens fail?

Why not simply keep a week's worth of powerdown in savings rather than power it up?

I answered this in the OP:

Just be more responsible!
There's also an argument to be made that no one should be powering up 100% of their funds to begin with. We should always have some liquid in case the price spikes and we want to sell a little. In theory, sure, but 90%+ of people in the world are bad with money, so that's just not a realistic expectation.


Again, this change would only move the 13 week powerdown to 12, so I feel like you haven't addressed my post and are instead referring to the many comments here saying to remove it entirely or reduce to 4 weeks. Seems like we are the only two people on the platform that enjoy the long powerdown... besides the devs/stakeholders that are actually in charge.

Yeah. I guess asking the question was a weird way of agreeing with the statement.

And yeah my response is just an addition to the entire debate that has taken place over the years. I rarely give a direct response to any post. Something triggers a thought process so I just throw it down and people can look at me weird all they want. heh

There are businesses, communities, projects and so on here. They all took more than 13 weeks to build. They're on a strong foundation as well. Pull the rug out and we're fucked. Everyone. 4 weeks for a second layer makes sense. If one building collapses the city still stands.

And it's worth mentioning. Hive isn't anti-speculator or some shit like that. You buy some HIVE. That's secure. Then the speculator can go fuck around with all the opportunities on chain. No different than buying Bitcoin, that's secure (enough), then go flip some shit coins.

13 weeks saved our asses from losing everything almost instantly when all that shit went down last year and we ended up here.

This isn't entirely true. 13 weeks made top investors lose $5 mill collectively just because the whole procedure is slow and Sun froze their assets

No. They lost five million because it was stolen.

which wouldn't have happened if it wasn't for that 13 week barrier

So if someone came along and froze your account right now, at this very moment. Did you lose that money because you couldn't get it out in time?

The only way for this to happen is exactly the way Sun did it. Powered up a shit ton of Steem, controlled the super-majority of the witnesses and implemented changes to the code. It didn't matter if the power down period was 1 week or 5 years. A simple change to the code was enough to control everything. Which is what we should focus on...

And yeah 13 weeks to have access to your entire stash is just too much time in crypto.

And we did focus on that. The cost to do something like that again far exceeds what could be extracted or gained. There's no more massive lump sum of potentially overwhelming governance influence available for purchase by simply selling the key of an account. And isn't there a delay now before newly staked tokens become effective in governance? That means if you can see the monster coming, people will make emotionally charged decisions (get scared). With a shortened powerdown period, they'd weaken the walls of governance quicker, panic sell, create a chain reaction where others panic sell because monkey see monkey do. Then two weeks later you find out it was all a hoax. But the place is destroyed anyway because of a weakened/shortened powerdown period. Monster didn't even have to lift a finger.

"...13 weeks to have access to your entire stash is just too much time in crypto."

But you didn't answer my question up there. And we don't lose access to our funds once powered up.

If you can't hold for 13 weeks and are only in it for the fast money then simple, don't power up and trade it on an exchange instead.

This seems like a mute point. Let's just get all the HST smart chains, side chains, bridges, and important infrastructure done before we waste more time on this subject. Also the @hive.loans will facilitate this, if people want to get fast cash, they can borrow against their hive power. I say keep it 13 weeks, or maybe make it 2 years again!! lol

My hero.

Like I said: I'm just spitballing here.
But yeah this network doesn't need more ideas it needs people actually building new shit.

Yeah the account is @hive.loans for that one. Although I should snap up those other mis-spellings and redirect them eh?

Not a bad idea.

It's done.

HSC the BNB Destroyer!!

hive-blockchain-hive-logo.png

Very high tech / demonic energy going off this one.. Can't say I don't like it though. :D

The ETH logo as the diamond shape so far is sort of my fave look.. It still shows that it's HIVE but then also alludes to what is running under the hood of the side chain. :D

Yeah, I was going for the Death Star look! Lol thanks!!

Or Borg for some reason.

First of all, starting a post with the Shadow Priest skills is an instant win.

Regarding an instant power down with cool down sounds like a fun experience. To counter the potential abuse, there could be a 1/13th penalty for all new power-ups for one week on their upvote power. It is not that much to make a difference for anyone who powers up but takes out beforehand, what could be taken out eventually when powering down.

Isn't there the dev funding for a proposal of @klye to build some form of leveraging of the Hive Power, allowing for instant liquidity? I am not sure how that works but sounds at first like something that would also give the ability to sell at a market peak, while then being able to power down and pay the debt later.

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Yeah. I've got an account as collateral lending service coming out here in the next month or so. Should vastly increase HIVE users ability to capitalize on market swings provided they are willing to give up their account ownership temporarily to do so. They'll still remain in control of being able to post and whatnot, however their main owner key will be held by the service until all loans are paid back. :)

Where does the liquidity come from? And has any individual like yourself access to the owner key?

Liquidity comes from users posting amounts of HIVE they wish to loan out, the duration of the loan and the interest rate they wish to receive. From there it's put into a contract that users can accept by relinquishing their account keys to the site. The owner key will get encrypted a few different ways and shoved in the database only to be decrypted on the borrowers client later on after they've paid back their loan.

Eventually I might set it up that a smart contract completely ends up owning the site and I don't have access to all of the data like I do now. During development though it's one of those things you almost need access to to make sure everything is running right and be able to fix mistakes.

That is such a cool system. Congrats for developing this smart system. I remember voting for the proposal but I didn't grasp the entire thing fully. Looking forward to make use of this. In times were common interest loans can easily be paid back with tons of opportunities around, this seems like a massively useful feature!

It started out as a somewhat simple idea to do loans by swap accounts ownership as collateral for lending.. Then when I realized that I should probably decentralize the thing a bit better the idea of getting a side chain going that I could write proper smart contracts on came to me..

It should be a decent attempt at really improving HIVE utility and quality of life for users. :)

Does @hive.loans not solve this?

It certainly will circumvent a large amount of the current issue with the powerdown duration via it's implementation of the account on collateral method.. :)

Yep. I think is a better solution.

13 weeks is just too much time. almost an eternity in crypto.
Even 4 weeks is too much. Look at Hive. It spiked 30% today. One could make huge profits and even grow their HIVE stake a lot if they wanted to reinvest in HIVE, as long as they have had their tokens liquid instead of being powered up to gain more influence. But we do like influence, right?

I see no reason why we can't enjoy both. I would eliminate HIVE Power, completely. We sacrifice much more in the name of "safety"

One could make huge profits and even grow their HIVE stake a lot if they wanted to reinvest in HIVE

That's just gambling. You're assuming the price of Hive is going to drop.
Again, gamblers lose 90% of the time, so that would be a disservice to the community.

We sacrifice much more in the name of "safety"

There is no intrinsic safety provided here. We could just as easily removed forced time-locks and implement opt-in timelocks for those who want extra protection.

I don't like these time-locks because they "add value" or "security" to the network. I like them because they promote responsible money management in addition to commitment to the network.

That's just gambling. You're assuming the price of Hive is going to drop.
Again, gamblers lose 90% of the time, so that would be a disservice to the community.

That's not gambling...it's crypto. Whatever spikes suddenly it usually cool off a while later. And it did. Only took a few hours

I suspect it would have been just as truthful to say, "of course it's gambling. All investment is gambling. But you're not my dad so why should you get to say whether my choices of what to do with my money are good or not?"

The implicit assumption made that the price of Hive will never drop is far more dangerous, in the long term, and letting individuals decide whether they want to take the risk, hedge their bets, or pull out of the market. That's a level of paternalism I suspect that both of us are uncomfortable with.

Oh look at that Hive just spiked up to 60 cents... your theory already fell flat on its face. :D

You got dem bear market goggles on, friend.

Not 100% sold on this post, but must say you called the HIVE bottom well. In November I was sobbing that I was down 99%, and there didn't seem to be any end to it, and you were right to say we were near the bottom. HIVE is up 5x from there. It can go another 10x or 20x from here before end of the year imo.

Really because now it's back down at 50. All I am saying is that we could take advantage of these price swings even with our entire stake...

20% up...then 10% down then 30% up ...then 20% down...

You could have doubled your stake in one day if you sold the tops or near the tops and bought back in near the previous bottom

I very much like that idea but there should be a cooldown on it before it become eligible for upvote or else people would move in and out just to farm the reward pool. Whales could totally ruin the HIVE distribution without any penalty. Imagine Justin Sun buying a couple million HIVE, upvote himself or his buddies and then move out and dump the HIVE on the market, potentially at a gain because others followed the green candles and pushed the price a bit higher than JS paid for it.

That used to be the argument from the DTube founder, that HIVE should be always liquid. This is why the he made the DTUBE token 100% liquid but loading up power over time, without any cap on the voting power. It just loads up forever until you use it. Not sure if I like that idea for HIVE though, it would be an entirely different process than we have now. But something to think about in that regard.

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LEO also works the same way...just saying

No, it doesn't. LEO pays out liquid rewards, instead of powering up half of them. But you still need to power up LEO in order to get access to the LEO inflation distribution. However, the power down period is already drastically reduced compared to HIVE, with four weeks instead of thirteen. If we eliminate Hive Power (or LEO Power) completely, there would be no powering up anymore and all tokens would be 100% liquid all the time. The question is, how would we handle inflation distribution that way without opening the doors to massive abuse?

I would argue that stopping at just 1/13 doesn't go far enough. Why should there be any cooldown at all?

I know, I know – all the old assertions, with the core one effectively boiling down to, "if users actually owned all of their token, they might spend it all at once and depress the price!" The implicit paternalism of this position and effective ignorance of the economic realities always pained me.

If your users which hold the token all want to liquidate at the same time, their desire to liquidate already indicates that the value has dropped. Locking them into keeping their money in the bank, as it were, artificially inflates the value and artificially deflates the liquidity. If you're interested in prices as signals, you can no longer accept those signals as valid prices.

On top of that, it assumes that holding will always be better – and we know that's foolish.

Part of this goes back to inherent issues with proof of stake systems across the board, and those of been beaten to death more than "which D&D edition is the best?" on the Internet.

I support immediate power cooldowns for the entire value of your HBD. If I want to take all of my coins out of the bank and spend them on hookers and blow, that's not the place of the bank to judge. If I want to make them a sensible investment in rare earths, that's not the place of the bank to judge.

What you can't control, you don't own – and one of the core axioms of the cryptocommodity world has always been "you own your money." This kind of mechanic, one of which hinges on not letting you make executive agency decisions about how to spend your money just reinforces the fact that Hive (and Steem before it) isn't really about providing more agency to users. It's about creating an increasingly sticky place to put value for the benefit of others.

I've never really been down for that and I'm still not down for that.

Again, if you want to eliminate the powerdown you take baby-steps to that effect.
This all or nothing attitude is not going to get where you want to be.

The complete avoidance of something which has long been acknowledged as a real problem, the ridiculous length of the power down, seems to have had a pretty good effect of driving a lot of people out of the platform altogether.

You can tell this by the results of looking at the content diversity on the platform as a whole.

"Baby steps" suffice for babies, but we are talking about babies here. Were talking about a deep, bone deep, design idea that works to the detriment of the market as a whole and the token in specific.

Going from "we'll decide when you can have your property" to "here's 1/13 of your property and will decide when you can have the rest," isn't a baby step. It's no step.

The problem is much more elemental and much more rooted in the base philosophy thing can be addressed with just moving around when the first payoff of trying to get your property under your control is.

At a certain point, you have to accept that the underlying design for a game that's not working is broken and move on to something else. A whole lot of people have made that decision over the last several years about Hive and the power down mechanic is a good chunk of that reason.

At a certain point, you have to accept that the underlying design for a game that's not working is broken and move on to something else.

System is working just fine. No matter how it works there are going to be people that aren't happy with it. There is no evidence to suggest that the way we are doing things now is better or worse than other options.

The only way to truly "fix" the problem is to let the network decide with governance votes. If the network voted 13 times to reduce the powerdown period from 13 weeks to 0 weeks, so be it. Individuals don't get to just decide they know best.

Individuals don't get to just decide they know best.

One could argue that it's just that attitude in that belief that led to Hive splitting off from Steem in the first place. Individuals decided they knew what was best. It's one of the key points of the whole architecture of governance, that individuals decide that they know best what to do with their votes and their stake.

I hope you didn't say the quiet part out loud.

I would argue that only individuals get to decide they know best; organizations shouldn't. Other people shouldn't.

I would absolutely be behind "the network" voting 13 times to reduce the power down period from 13 weeks to zero weeks. This isn't the first time that it's ever been suggested that it be allowed to come to a vote. Not even in the last 13 weeks.

Part of the problem is that there are significant powers who have a lot of stake (pun simultaneously intended and literal meaning alongside) and keeping other people's tokens locked up to artificially elevate the perceived value of their own. Like I said before, it is one of the inherent problems with proof of stake systems; the centralized interests of major stakeholders can utterly swarm out the interests of small stakeholders. Locking up their funds keep small stakeholders from being able to cash out their interests and take them elsewhere, where they may have more alignment with the intentions of the environment.

It was a bad idea at the beginning. It's been a bad idea for years. It continues to be a bad idea.

I don't actually believe that "the network" would decide with governance votes to reduce the power down cycle. There's too much advantage in the Powers That Be in keeping it as it is – or even extending it, which is been discussed more than once.

I believe that your own post answered several questions.

The model takes time and I understand the frustration when the market is high. But, for everyone who starts here, they know how it works and already have in mind that it will have a "blocked" value. For the sake of the community, for security, to keep it working there in the beginning, it is necessary. Now, you should also have a "savings" as you say, do not spend everything on power. Make your "stock" for when you need it. I even keep some Hives at Binance for cases just like now, until Steem I still have them. In a hope that maybe beat 1 dollar lol

Ps: I played a lot of WoW too, and incidentally, a Priest skill bar :P

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I think the power down is fine, You also earn or at least should be based on actions on the platform so you have a choice then to power up and build your income or simply cash it out right then. I feel this gives more of a balance to HIVE compared to something like Bitcoin. It also gives it yet another use case.

I fear that we are afraid about people selling everything if the cooldown was lower, but why not experiment with it? Maybe the dynamics from the markets to sell and buy might be healthier in the end. I would try to make the power down as lower as possible and see what happens...we can always go back to it.

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we could get 1/13th of our money INSTANTLY and then the ability goes on cooldown for a week.

The first 1/13 of power down can be paid instantly with %5 going to @null to support the growth of Hive at the same time. Another way can be powering down in 6 weeks with %12 less amount. 13 weeks may scare investors 💁🏽‍♂️

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13 weeks may scare investors

Then they shouldn't power up or we should give them a better way to earn passive income:
Which I described in detail with the CDP stable-coin minting proposal.

The 13weeks is fine in my opinion. Yeah it enforces money management. And the choice is always available to either power up or not, powering up is accepting to the 13week terms and the incentives of staking that comes with it. Do you want to play or speculate? To speculate you don't get inflation incentives, but you get instant cash out.

At the extreme case, there should be a power down service that charges fees for the activation of shorter duration of power down. In that case, power down periods can be limited to 4weeks.

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I think it is good, it decreases the volatility and therefor creates more stability to the Hive price.
You will think twice before selling, if you have to power down.

Anyways, who would want to ever power down?

To look at half of a cub which is full
When Hive went up to 0.3 from about 0.2 if there was an Immediate power down
We would mourn our fortune after it reached half a dollar
But the power down in the long run prevents you from spending too fast and rushing to sell like a piggy bank

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Even though I like the proposal (and the comparison with MMO cooldown mechanics) I don't think the power down time is that bad. That might be because I'm also on HODL mode and will be for a long time but I'm always reviewing my decision in case I think it's best to have some liquid Hive to sell (which I've never done) or maybe invest on other projects on the blockchain.

That being said, I could live with 1/13th instant powerdown. I'm somewhat new to this whole blockchain nad crypto thing so I could be wrong, but it doesn't seem too dangerous for the "environment".

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Steem is one Week, can we learn something about it?

IMO shorter would also work,

2 edge sword, emotional people will sell low buy high faster :D

3 months are like protection for them. More dynamic in funds brings in more people that power up.

But in cases you need the money, 3 months can be a pain. With loan/collaterals, we wouldn't need faster power-downs IMO.

Like A DAI version for Hive. Easy. Hive power ( not hive) lockups for Stable coin.

Bam why ever sell?

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Makes sense to me.

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I'm against anything that prevents us from capitalizing on our knowledge, gambling, or luck.
The irony of this setup is that true believers and supporters can't take advantage of market swings, while enemies like Sunny boy and Nedy making huge amounts on exchanges.
And safety because of the 13-week lock-up is bull crap.

I'm against anything that prevents us from capitalizing on our knowledge,

@oldtimer you are totally correct sir,capitalizing on our knowledge is the right thing to do...

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@oldtimer i have observed that you say things the way they are...i love your honesty sir...

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Great idea! Please Hive make it happen.

Most of the people commenting didn't get the point the writer is trying to pass across. What he's simply suggesting in summary is: instead of waiting for complete 7days before getting 1/13th of your asset after your first powerdown, why not making the getting of the 1/13th of the asset instant while the 7days cooldown/wait period comes into play before the next asset can be gotten. This is actually a great idea as it would help those that really want to participate in the market when there's an upsurge in price do that easily with the 1/13th of their instantly gotten asset after the power down. This will create more liquidity and also attract more investors.

I have always thought that they should implement some kind of toll if you wanted to power down in a quicker fashion. So say you aren't in a hurry, then you do the 13 week power down. If you want the hive quicker, you have to pay a 5% fee to get it in 8 weeks. Then a 10% fee to get it in 4 weeks. They take that fee an they burn it. Or something else creative with it that helps the system. I understand not wanting people to pump and dump but I also think some people aren't willing to invest in Hive because they don't want to be locked in for so long. I like your idea too. Instant cast and then wait for the cooldowns. I remember having all of spells lined up in the exact order to maximize the cooldowns. That pyroblast cooldown on mages took forever!

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The 13 weeks is ok. HP is what this community is rewarded from and it shoudl not be liquidated in an instant.

That CD ability like PD is great idea, i like it!

I might go with the 4 week idea to provide liquidity when needed, where it can be split in 5, one direct at the start and 4 at the end of the week, but with a cooldown on them, HP that is powered down shall have been kept over one year in the wallet and if it is initiated the fast power down can be started again in 1 year, the rest shall be left normal at 13 weeks.

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