Development Costs - Then V's Now

in hive-167922 •  3 months ago 

On the 11th December 2018, Steemit Inc. (via @steemit2) sent 800,000 STEEM to @gsr-io with a (misspelled) memo that read 'Programattic sales with GSR.io'.


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Unrelated to the post - Valencia 2018

... let’s go back to December 2018. The only income Steemit reported was the monthly selling of Steem (which we have done since 2016), while expenses were off the chart! Amazon Web Services (AWS) bills were $225k alone. In addition, we had closer to 15 employees so salaries and benefits were high, our office lease was $20k a month, etc., etc. source

Although, as confirmed above, this programmatic selling had taken place since the beginning, it's easier to track what happened with regards to transfers during the 242 days that followed:


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In total, 6,122,655.479 STEEM was sent to @gsr-io from Steemit Inc. accounts between the 11th Dec 2018 and the 9th Aug 2019. There could be more sends to other locations; I checked all sends to @gsr-io and found 'steemit', 'steem', 'steemit1','steemit2' to be accounts relating to Steemit Inc.

According to coinmarketcap, if this STEEM had been sold at the closing price on the day it was transferred, the total would be 2,046,653.194 USD.

The time-frame of this batch of selling was 242 days, and dividing this number by the USD total gives 8457.24 USD/day.

During this period, @steemitblog released a number of posts detailing work that was being/had been done, mainly involving MIRA, Rocks DB, Steemit wallet refactoring, Hivemind, and SMT - Some stuff did happen, and it did cost a fair amount.



?


Moving on to today and Hive, we no longer have a company leading development, marketing, ad. campaigns, etc, but what we do have is The Decentralized Hive Fund (DHF).

The DHF currently receives 4,923.418 HBD each day, which is approximately $4,662 at the time of writing. Proposals voted ahead of the Return Proposal receive (what looks to be) a payment every hour, in line with their daily pay, and @steem.dao is refunded with whatever is not spent.


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The current daily cost of the proposals ahead of the Return Proposal (which may have changed before I finish this post) is 805 HBD per day, meaning the fund is growing by around 4,100 HBD / day.

It is highly likely that the upcoming proposals by @blocktrades and @justineh will be funded (at least for some of their duration) which would bring the total cost each day to 2305 HBD per day, or $2,182 at the time of writing - less than half of the daily budget.

This amount is approximately a quarter of the daily running costs of Steemit Inc. over the time-frame mentioned above, using the $ value of the closing price of STEEM if sold on the transfer dates.

Using the above expenditure by Steemit Inc. as a guide and the current cost of active proposals, I would say we are now getting more for less - much more, for much less.

Full core development, image hosting, wallet (including ledger integration), exchange listings, etc, keeping up with what Steemit Inc were delivering, but also providing more, for less.


To be honest, I wasn't too keen on writing a post around a topic which has apparently 'divided the community' and brought differing opinions between myself and those I respect, but when I look at cost / deliverables and compare to the recent past, I think we are in an excellent position right now and should be supporting the initiatives adding (and those that have added) value to the ecosystem.


Enjoy your weekend,

Asher

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I want somebody to get a proposal together and start developing a slick mobile app. A proper one. Like real sites have. That, would be the ultimate game changer for this place. It would take us out of niche.

Like real sites have.

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:0)

I'm supporting this one - bit of a flier but cheap for the potential?

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https://peakd.com/dapplr/@dapplr/dapplr-first-design-based-app-being-built-on-hive

Oh sure, I saw that one. Will give it a vote myself!

Ugh feels bad that it doesn't get enough support.

Who can we page for that?

At the price, it's worth throwing a bit of caution into the wind imo.

If the team fail to provide regular progress reports and stick to promises, then the support will vanish. Plenty of people earning far more than what they are asking for from content, myself included.

I'll keep mentioning this one where appropriate, I also like roomservice's brave advertising campaign, although concede that we need to be bang on with where the link from the add would go to.

Almost feel like the proposal system needs some better implementation to enforce accountability, etc.

With the proposals/proposers being paid by the hour, funding can stop pretty sharpish. I think a weekly (burned) progress report is reasonable. Most contract work is 1 week to a month tops on termination notice? It's the hit employees have to take for getting someone in quick, and them not being up to scratch.

Here, reputation is perhaps more important than in the real world as negative references are not the norm. It'll be in the blockchain history who's not delivered what's been promised, and they will unlikely get funding in future, i assume.

I’m wondering if they’d get into the App Store at all. Apple doesn’t seem too friendly with crypto and blockchain related apps.

Seemingly not friendly at all, and I'm not sure of the reason. Perhaps it's tougher for them to monetize this as opposed to selling the likes of in-game crystals and extra goes?

The "evil" Chinese 🤣🤣 have that covered huewai devices are "Blockchain" ready and their android/apple store alternative app gallery is ready to rock

Exactly! They ask for so little that it deserves the support.+ If I’m not mistaken Hive doesn’t have any mobile app for now?

There is the eSteem app, which is reportedly getting better all the time. I just feel we need new eyes on this one, and will try to plug them where suitable.

Oh sure Esteem. I have it kinda connected with Steem:D...just like Partiko (which ended correct?)

I've been told to think of it as Esteem (self esteem), but yes, sounds very Steemy to me also.

Partiko I think is gone yes, I never used it myself.

That missclick brought my mind elswhere "ass teen" you say?:D

ha! Where? :D

Anyone promising to build an app this awesome for 30HBD a day gets my support. That's like 5K. If they onboard 100 people, it will be well worth it and they could very well onboard a lot more. We don't need absolutely everything to be open-sourced or whatever.

100% agree with this. We need to break with the old style, people loves easy, fast and mobile interface

They do. It's how the masses consume! :0)

Have you tried Esteem lately? It has improved quite a lot and we are preparing next release, feel free to try it out and let us know what you would like to see improved.

I haven't tried it for a while. I will be sure to check out the latest release and let you know :0)

Thank you. We will likely release new update next week with additions, improvements and will be happy to include changes if you will have any feedback.

Hopefully I will!

How hard was it for you guys to get into the App Store?

Initial listing is always challenging

Just rebrand to something not steem-y (i would also suggest not hive-y) and you'll probably triple your users in a week.

It was in pipeline to rebrand, but given that our name nothing to do with Steem, It is english word Esteem respect and admiration to our community, checkout our faq about our decision: https://esteem.app/hive/@esteemapp/faq

I wouldn't be married to that reasoning. Clearly it's a better strategic move to remove all association with hive and/or steem. I guarantee that if you rebrand to something else, you will get 3x your traffic.

We are working on website currently which will more likely 3x combined with mobile app and rebranding is still something we are planning for long term goals. Any suggestions for name?

I use Esteemapp for everything I do here. I am amazed by all the features the app has. I'm always happy to help new users find their way around.

But then less people would be looking out the windows. Are you anti-glass or something? Think about all those jobs people have making windows and installing windows. What about them? Their families? Some have kittens too, you know.

Just rehearsing for the next proposal shit show.

Haha, that's the stuff!! Divide my community!! :0D

"Divide"? If you're just going to resort to using the 'D' word, at least say the right one. What is wrong with you people. My opinion is delicious not divisive.

Why not use them both and claim some double d action!!

Because I wouldn't want too many of D's problems.

D's days it seems like I got dinety dine problems and a ditch ain't one

Damn. D's days dudes do dolls...

you're looking for dapplr or esteem :)

I'm hoping for great things from dappl and am going to check out esteem again. I have tried it before and to be honest and no offense against the guys, at the time it wasn't great. But I'm all for trying again

Oh I haven't tried it myself though. I just heard good things from them.

Too late, you're on the hook... ;0)

agree 100%

Check out the dapplr proposal.

While scrutiny and debate around new proposals are mostly a good thing (when done in good faith), I think it would be more productive to have more people create more proposals. Healthy competition is how we will get even more out of less (or rather, much more out of more as price goes up :) ).

I have refrained from joining the debates myself, as I would rather take a step back and work on a process we can apply to jointly define the needs we have and thus what an optimal allocation of the fund will look like. We're still early in all of this and I expect many iterations and improvements to happen, probably through a few short term inefficiencies and mistakes. But that's ok.

I am all for more proposals and more competition too. Even if they don't make funding they may bring ideas to the table, and push people to improve.

Very wise to stay out of the way on the chain, and just get on with work. I agree with:

We're still early in all of this and I expect many iterations and improvements to happen, probably through a few short term inefficiencies and mistakes.

And it being OK. It's new to all of us, but so far so good in my opinion.

I'm rather in alignment with that. But I also believe it might behoove us to use a more proactive approach to development and funding... rather than waiting for our many talented devs to "create something" and ask for funding, why not make the community part of the process?

Several very influential Hive members run initiatives that get LOTS of people involved, so why not run a community wide "What would you most like to see developed on Hive, what would you expect it to DO, and why?" challenge, and see what people come up with. Set the brainstorming in motion with the end users, rather than with the devs and see what comes up.

=^..^=

I am reading this late as always. Feels like I can never catch up with you, Asher :)

I don't remember who I was discussing this with earlier. But when we do project management, and we are half-spend compared to the budget, we will likely get fired. This is simply because, if a corporation allocate some money for a project as a budget, and that money is under spend; then two things must be happening:

  1. Planning was inaccurate; that money could have been spent elsewhere in the corporation as multiple projects compete for the same limited budget.
  2. Proposals that could benefit the corporation further, was stalled due to mismanagement of fund

This raises multiple questions. Hive is not a corporation, and nobody allocated the funds in DHF. It is semi-automated, and stakeholders only votes proposal to get funded. Therefore, there is very limited functionality.

Although I am aligned, that many proposals can be funded, however, I still struggle with what is currently funded and the cost-benefit ratio. For example, currently Proposal #68 for Vessel Wallet is funded for 150 HBD/day. I understand its a nifty tool. I even recently saw an update on it, regarding an option to include it within Ledger Nano wallet. However, I ask a simple question:

how many users does Vessel wallet has?

10 - 100 - 1000?

What is the purpose of a desktop wallet where majority of the hive users stake remains powered up and integrated with front-end UI?

This is just an example. I am not singling any individual or proposals out. If we can't have a merit-demerit discussion about a proposal or its utility publicly, we are doomed.

Better late than never, or not at all if you don't have the interest/time :)

I am aware of how company budgets work, and it seems that in the places I have worked the end of year has at times been a panic to allocate funds to projects just to keep the same budget next time.

That of course is not how the DHF works. 'Money' not spent is pooled back into the fund and there is no overarching entity that will reduce next day/week/month/year's allowace. In fact, there is a stack of HIVE (old Steem accounts) that some of could be added to the budget in the future.

I mentioned to Taraz today though, I am (despite popular opinion) more inclined to throw some HBD to the wind and see if we can't get a nice shiny phone app or some Brave advertising, for example. Even with Justine's and BT's proposal receiving funding, we are way under the daily budget - why not live a little and see if we can get in a solid position ready for the next crypto boom. And if that boom doesn't come, well we are all doomed anyway :)

  ·  3 months ago (edited)

Value is just one proposition, the other one is definitely the utility. Just because a proposal is out there doesn't mean we need it. Throw away all the HBD you like, no problem. But help me understand, why we always need a crypto rally to bail us out? Why a project is so dependent on the price of the underlying? If the product is good and it is needed I will support it regardless of the price of Hive.

True, we will not need them all, and I think most will not get the funding they wish for.

I can't help you understand much :) But it has seemed to me that if there is no interest in bitcoin, there is no interest in any other token in the space - nothing has managed to unhinge itself, yet.

Also what steem INC did with their funding is interesting and valuable to me. But I am sure you are not suggesting we use a corrupt and failed corporation as a benchmark, do we? Just because we forked out of them, we don't have to do everything like them :)

I am sure we can do better than that.

I tried my best not to suggest and merely present, but may have slipped in the final paragraphs :)

I'm glad you are sure, because if not we are buggered!

Good sleuthing, man. I like it. We need better monetary policy (and that includes how to deal with DAO proposals) but it's early days. New version of PeakD is awesome! Are they getting funded by hivedao? It doesn't seem so. And that is a shame. What is Vessel? Never heard of it. Never used it. Probably shouldn't be funding a desktop wallet over a proper mobile wallet. But hopefully these things will get fixed over time.

I do like the new version of PeakD, the amount of features they've brought under one roof is really helpful.

I did use Vessel a long time ago but Jesta, the original dev seems to leave it to stagnate. I'm not sure how well used the new version will be, but it seems some think it's worth a revamp.

We need mobile so bad. Who can we fund? Or how much money will it take to get esteem to rebrand to a different name? I vote Easel. Can keep the e logo. Just get that awful name off the product and I'll use it.

dapplr looks promising for 30 HBD/day.

https://peakd.com/dapplr/@dapplr/dapplr-first-design-based-app-being-built-on-hive

I'm not sure Esteem are going to rebrand/change the name you know...

Some folks were concerned others were receiving money. I'd just like to remind people about that airdrop they received. Never forget about it the next time you feel as if you've been left out or feel others don't deserve something for "nothing."

Indeed. I am most pleased with progress so far, and the raft of free tokens.

That development and infrastructure fund is important. People will always agree and disagree about things, so that reaction is normal and something we'll all have to get used to. I just hope the political arena acts professionally. Still a long road ahead.

A long road ahead for sure.

I just hope the political arena acts professionally.

I've not seen anything to question this (although not sure to who I would take my question to) thus far.

I guess the price of popcorn must've dropped.

If it's salty, I'm not interested.

If there will be drama over the DHF it'll be in a very tight little bubble I think. There's not a lot of people around to witness it!

Since we are funding too many proposals, I hope the cost of proposal should not overtake DHF.

The proposals ahead of the Return Proposal are not even half the daily amount at present, and then there's 65m or so HIVE that could go in there at some point.

So basically, it's a good deal?

Didn't realise I needed a tl;dr for 500 words but yes, imo a good deal at twice the price :)

It's not for me. It's for others.

I would say we are now getting more for less - much more, for much less.

May be some contributors haven't created a proposal yet! 😉

Get your hat and throw it into the ring :)

Sounds like I am missing some interesting discussions as I have no idea what's going on. So looking at the numbers alone that you shared, it does indeed look like we are getting more for less 😀

There has been a fair amount of finger-pointing and statements made without much behind them. This was an attempt to at least bring something to compare against, cause you know, I'm shit with words (and not that good with numbers either). Good to see you :)

I don’t know, but comparing expenditures to the ones generated under the Steem era is a bit preposterous. Ned was the worst CEO ever and so was their whole money management.

But whatever. You guys know better.

So far, I've not seen anyone compare anything other than citing their 'dev friends'. Although to be taken with a pinch of salt, at least there are some numbers here to compare.

I am not sure what you mean by the final statement, I'm just someone stating their opinion like everyone else.

Probably the best thing to do here would be a business plan. Or a roadmap, or something where goals are laid out and a budget is set, based on real world quotations.

This sort of stuff should be in the original proposal document. It's early days and I suspect proposals will have to be spot on in future.

Good Job

Cheers!

  ·  3 months ago (edited)

How come you never covered this when I was exposing them? You going to do the same to hive when you move on to the next best thing, no balls, at least your women friend spoke up, no balls asher!.

It's amazing how costs change when there's no one stealing in the overhead.

Yeah, it's a huge difference and more is happening. Did @ned's haircuts really cost so much?

Hi @abh12344 I know I'm a little bit of topic, but could you drop me the link of the post where you showed us the top 100 larger active accounts on Hive? Or, can you point me to a site where somebody has explained how to pull this data out of the blockchain?

I'm thinking on marketing strategies for this place but I think that new users should feel some love from the big guys and maybe them could tell a story about why they think it's worth to be invested here. So I'll try to reach them for some feedback.

So happy we left Steem behind us. Still powering down to sell for btc then buy Hive every 7 days.

I'm with you on that!

Dont forget you got a clone of the Steem engine / Hive engine tokens too, go sell all your steem engine tokens

I'm holding just in case they move to SMT.

I just bought the same tokens in Hive Engine, wouldnt hive engine go to HMT in that case?

Or is the developer different from Hive to Steem engine?

The gap is huge

Very good analytical write up

Cheers!

uhhhh where do I find where to vote for DAOson hive?
Have some votes for spare and development should never stop. Are the old steem devs working here now btw?

I use peakD, it's on the menu under your username: https://peakd.com/me/proposals

I'm not sure any of the old Steem devs have anything funded as yet, but I think there are some involved yes.

The pictures are beautiful

I would say we are now getting more for less - much more, for much less

Who does not want more ? 😁 We should be on the top - No 1 - That should be our goal 😁

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Those numbers are so bewildering. I hope they could still fix steemit the way it was before.

In what way? I think things are better now!

Hi sir. Thanks for the response. In APPICS we are still experiencing a lot of server errors and my posts in appics are not showing on steemit just recently. But everything's ok now as what you've mentioned.

  ·  3 months ago Reveal Comment

Yeah, I'm undecided on how much we should be comparing. I think it's OK for now but really we should be looking at who's above and not below.

Personally, I think it's a total shambles over there and as soon as I can get my stake out the better.

  ·  3 months ago (edited)Reveal Comment

Same bitch, more fucking bitching.

You're clueless and uneducated. Move along child.

You don't know shit. You think you know a bunch of random stuff you picked up from reading the chain and the chats but you have absolutely no idea who is putting in what kind of hours. If you did, you'd change your tune real quick.

She doesn't care to be informed, if he were then he wouldn't have anything to bitch about for attention.

Good argument. You convinced me.😂

Btw, funny thing. I havent yet seen a single one of the guys reaching into the bag even mention expanding on accountability for proposal funding.

Im sure Howo works 8 hours a day on his continual development proposal. Im sure Netosuo works 8 hours a day on his one continual development proposal and 8 hours a day on his second continual development proposal.
Im sure Justine worked for 700 hours and we could have never got listed with someone with any kind of experience or qualifications.

Theyre all nice folks so i say we trust them.
And im the fucking dick for questioning this approach. Fine, ill be the dick, someone has to be.

Perfectly acceptable to question time and resources, it's the being the dick that i'm not sure about.

The problem is you aren’t questioning, you are just accusing. You are basing your claims on no facts, rather your uneducated and biased opinions and.. of course.. your “dev friends” and their opinion on what core blockchain developers cost. (Google does wonders here)

It’s clear all you are doing is trying to make drama for attention, as usual, and don’t want to actually help improve anything or be apart of any solution. You keep repeating accusations even when you have been shown why it’s not factual.. which means you don’t actually give a fuck, you just want a reaction.

You simply want to shit on anyone you can while you shit post and reward yourself and your friends.. while cashing out your GF’s account.

So since you feel everyone should just do stuff for Hive out of the kindness of their heart, what are you doing? How will you be contributing to the core runnings of the ecosystem?

Perhaps stop throwing stones and come up with solutions.

I look forward to your core development and exchange/jack of all trades proposal.. since apparently you have it all figured out.

I look forward to your core development and exchange/jack of all trades proposal.. since apparently you have it all figured out.

Sure i do.
While all you have been jacking each other off so you can reach into the HIVE bag and "get payd" i went against the most popular folks on HIVE and started the discussion about increasing responsibility over the HIVE fund which led to numerous posts in response and devs scrambling to justify the use of their funding these last few days. All that in the time of major hype and support for those that established themselves as "community leaders".

See, i dont need whales to like me, nor do i have to work to develop relationships with individuals i dont like (like some folks i know do), nor do i need to make friends with individuals with "big sticks" just so i have protection on that side as well, just to do something.

You simply want to shit on anyone you can while you shit post and reward yourself and your friends.. while cashing out your GF’s account.

  1. I do not shitpost nor do i post frequently.
  2. My friends? I delegate a 1000 HP to c-squared and vote their reblogs every day. Its most of what i vote.
  3. Bringing up my wife and how she uses her funds? A cunt move, but fine. What someone does with their money is no ones business. Just like it was not anyones business when you sold all your STEEM for Bitcoin, praised it like it was the second coming of Christ and shit on everyone (even those that will vote your proposal) while we were fighting to take down Justin Sun.

Ha, so you made a post.. and other people built a blockchain. Well done. And here you are shitting on people.. how mighty of you.

I’ve not shit on anyone, and am very open on the issues I’ve seen in the system since long before JS. In fact I tried to tell you about them and you bashed me for not being a team player.. I tried to say I didn’t like the direction.. and you bashed me for not just sticking with the team (see a theme here), so I decided to just stick with my curation and leave the rest alone, after all if I’m not inline with consensus I have the option to just step back, which I did... and then when JS took over I spent my time trying to ensure the community had somewhere else to go.. what did you do again? Oh right, you made a post.

I really look forward to your proposal and your ideas on how to improve things.

Until then, go back to your hole, you look like a fool.

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It's a matter of time keeping. Because people are working longer hours, no one is time keeping properly. If I were to estimate Justine's hours based on when I see her working I'd put her at about 60+ solid hours a week. She hasn't taken a day off to my recollection. What she did with the exchanges normally a professional would charge a fortune to do. Remember that Steemit Inc failed to deliver for 4 years straight on exchange listings, and that's supposedly with a team. If you want to question, question those who make the big bucks but never seem to contribute anything.

Something I've not seen mentioned, just bizarre statements around Justine not being suitable for the role (yet delivering, huh?), is that we now have someone with that experience, which I'm sure is a) in demand elsewhere, and b) will come in handy in the future.

If she wasn't suitable on paper before, she is now, and these are the people we need to keep around.

image.png

Was really glad to read that today, it's what I've been telling people privately - Something about not looking a gift horse in the mouth?

It's not like someone can go to school to learn how to list with exchanges. This is trailblazing work. "Professional lister with 20 years of experience and PHd in listology" = magic tooth fairy unicorn sitting on a shitpile

Yup, lol.

Let's see if there's more to come :)

Were you born contrary or did it take practice?

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