Open letter to those who provide Red Flag with downvotes
A major flag / downvote war is spreading on Steemit
Images I use in this post are credit to pixabay.com
Big and small offices use the red flag without warning why they do it
No one should be allowed to give red flag with downvote without explaining it in advance
What signals will it give to new users?
Just lots of questions they don't know the answers to
My suggestion for the next Hardfork is
The use of downvote / flagging cannot come until you give a factual reason with warning. And the warnings should then come with a yellow flag
If the warnings are not heeded, it will be possible next time to give the red flag, but even then it must be described why the red flag comes.
Anyway, you should already enter a field that says you must comment before you can access flag / downvote
It seems as if the club Red Flag is now growing strongly and has a different agenda than helping to teach others about what steemit is.
When you spend so much time on downvote and flagging
I assume that you also see and read the whole post before giving a downvote.
I'm not against the red flag due to plagiarism
and spam for where it is necessary to give it
I want an explanation from you as to why my posts are flagged / downvoted and answers should come especially from @smooth who also gives downvote to some people I support
Even posts I and others have had about SPUD have been downvoted
But you may not know what SPUD is and see my name attached to it and just give a downvote, it's totally idiotic of you who did it
I expect answers from all of you and explain why you flag / downvoter when it is not spam / plagiarism
@justineh, @therealwolf and @whatsup
is one of the few who says why the flags give a downvote
@smooth @thevil @sospicy @renyd @jertrasoim @grenai @promobot @roadang @likwid @carfemise @rezsad @twosmin @vikeazim @juntre @eonwarped @markkujantunen @joshmania @steempatron @joshman @dr-frankenstein @curangel @downvoteme @steamsteem @termium @okean123 @ticopurelife @ozchartart @zer0hedge @celestal @nickyhavey @acidyo @artopium @znnuksfe @ratna24 @transisto @adsup @ozchartart @lordbutterfly @transisto @dicetime @tagflagger @ctime @deito @hizzy @tygewer @acidyo @michealb @coininstant @lyndsaybowes @jacobtothe @jlsplatts @hizzy @twosmin
That's what I get on the list today, but that's just a small part of it
Have you got an undeserved downvote / flag and no explanation is given
I hope you write a comment about it here
Am very grateful if you all Re-steemed this post so many can understand what is happening with the flag / downvonte nowadays
I hope we comb create a debate about this before we see red flags everywhere
A major flag / downvote war is spreading on Steemit
Big and small offices use the red flag without warning why they do it
No one should be allowed to give red flag with downvote without explaining it in advance
What signals will it give to new users?
Just lots of questions they don't know the answers to
My suggestion for the next Hardfork is
The use of downvote / flagging cannot come until you give a factual reason with warning. And the warnings should then come with a yellow flag
If the warnings are not heeded, it will be possible next time to give the red flag, but even then it must be described why the red flag comes.
Anyway, you should already enter a field that says you must comment before you can access flag / downvote
It seems as if the club Red Flag is now growing strongly and has a different agenda than helping to teach others about what steemit is.
When you spend so much time on downvote and flagging
I assume that you also see and read the whole post before giving a downvote.
I'm not against the red flag due to plagiarism
and spam for where it is necessary to give it
Even posts I and others have had about SPUD have been downvoted
But you may not know what SPUD is and see my name attached to it and just give a downvote, it's totally idiotic of you who did it
I expect answers from all of you and explain why you flag / downvoter when it is not spam / plagiarism
@justineh, @therealwolf and @whatsup
is one of the few who says why the flags give a downvote
@smooth @thevil @sospicy @renyd @jertrasoim @grenai @promobot @roadang @likwid @carfemise @rezsad @twosmin @vikeazim @juntre @eonwarped @markkujantunen @joshmania @steempatron @joshman @dr-frankenstein @curangel @downvoteme @steamsteem @termium @okean123 @ticopurelife @ozchartart @zer0hedge @celestal @nickyhavey @acidyo @artopium @znnuksfe @ratna24 @transisto @adsup @ozchartart @lordbutterfly @transisto @dicetime @tagflagger @ctime @deito @hizzy @tygewer @acidyo @michealb @coininstant @lyndsaybowes @jacobtothe @jlsplatts @hizzy @twosmin
That's what I get on the list today, but that's just a small part of it
Have you got an undeserved downvote / flag and no explanation is given
I hope you write a comment about it here
Am very grateful if you all Re-steemed this post so many can understand what is happening with the flag / downvonte nowadays
I hope we comb create a debate about this before we see red flags everywhere
This theme of the flags is very delicate, as many give negative votes without explaining, destroying the work of many, the truth this topic scared me so much that sometimes I do not even comment because we do not know who can bother and give a negative vote.
it must change and not be intimidated by giving a voice @teresah
If you could add to your list of abusers @themarkymark it would be a positive thing.
A few weeks after joining Steemit, I got the feeling that there are two main groups of accounts being @berniesanders and @themarkymark who's aim is to prevent Steem from achieving its potential. Since that time I have become more certain.
Is (re)distributing rewards using the tools available classed as abusing now?
Damn! It's like no one has ever received a negative comment or reaction before and this is the first time that they have used the internet!
I haven't had much, if any, interaction with those two accounts you mentioned but there's camillesteemer group of accounts that do just go on downvote rampages because they got caught plagiarising.
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''Is (re)distributing rewards using the tools available classed as abusing now?''
I do appreciate your reply. This comment may shed some light for you and should be taken very seriously.
https://steemit.com/steem/@valued-customer/re-joepublic-pwbgsw
The bernie accounts, well a lot of them are in hibernation right now.
Most certainly the most abusive of the two individuals but not by much. Abusive in terms of flagging accounts without cause, spam comments for self voting, abusive comments, death threats, self voting and flagging account to death etc.
His many boasts include holding the controlling stake of Steem, owning thousands of accounts, ability to destroy any account and control of the top 20 witnesses selection.
@themarkymark is his business partner and has taken up the lead role of chief abuser for the time being.
The sudden rise of flag abuse is due to the free flags which came in with the last hard fork. If you control the top 20 witness selection you can create whatever dystopian shit hole you want.
Their true aim can only be understood by observing their actions. Their actions are clearly hostile to the success of this platform.
If enough people can see the truth of the matter, we can change the rules regarding witness selection then limit the percentage of Steem Power any one group of accounts holds.
These guys have access to what seems like unlimited funds. And I am sure its not that hard to figure out the rest.
Well I have no affiliation with any of those accounts you mention and have no interest in getting dragged in to battles here (again) as I'm concerned with growing my own account and helping others with the contest I run and the community I am in.
I was responding to your insinuation that I was also part of some elaborate abuse network when I've been vocally against bid bots, which did earn me downvotes from them, have never used one, and have been vocal elsewhere about certain aspects of the way this platform was and is since HF 21.
My other comment replying to the call out from the original poster explains all I want to say on the downvote/upvote matter, which is on the main comments section.
I'm not following auto downvote trails either. I work off my own accord as to what I want to with the reward distribution tools available to me and that includes downvoting posts that I think are over rewarded whenever I happen to be online and can be arsed to scan the trending page.
I bought up 10k steem over the last month as I believe there's longevity in the platform and I'm an honest person, which is why I replied to the original post and other comments including yours, offering my point of view as part of the debate.
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O i am surprised that you felt i was implying you were part of it : )
I hope your investment grows. We nearly purchased a much larger stake just over two years ago. I sure am glad I decided to pull the plug on that idea.
I still keep an eye on it just in case enough people grow a pair and challenge the status quo
My own thoughts are that the price will go a lot lower.
If the price of Steem is to rise in a sustainable fashion, I am of the opinion that the witness selection process will need to be overhauled. We cant have some people owning thousands of accounts and being able to dictate the top twenty like it is now. But to change that means changing the thinking around being anonymous, so i do not think it is likely to happen soon.
Just think about it, even the founders have fucked off
Haha well I was tagged in this post and feature in that list as someone who downvotes like it's a bad thing and then you said "add these guys to your list of abusers" so that's where that came from.
I have been on steem for 18 months and 10p has been the lowest I've seen it at. Bought between 10-13p per steem and if it goes lower, I'll definitely be buying more because I want to be one of the ones directing this platform in the right direction, starting with the top 3 contest I started with 3 others a few months back.
It's why I downvote when I can, I don't care who it is. If I see a post that is over rewarded, I'll do what I can. I've even downvoted some of the names in that list so go figure 😂
Founders of companies come and go. I've seen that elsewhere but development is still happening and there's enough of a core team to keep this thing running which it has done for 3 years and that's longer than other blockchain projects I've seen or been involved with.
We are seeing a lot of communication from steemit which is encouraging compared to this time last year.
In case you can't tell, I quite like it here 😁
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If you want to see how abusive @themarkymark is he just went through my remaining rewards like he does every week and flags them away with one of his many alt accounts : )
If just just ignored me nobody would take me seriously. Its almost as if they want you to believe me isnt it.
Hi @joe.public
What triggered such a flag war against you?
I see that you are constantly tuned out and your reputation does not get a chance to increase again
Hey @xpilar
I really appreciate the question.
I will start by assuring you that I want Steem to reach its full world changing potential which i sincerely believe it holds.
I was being attacked by the @berniesanders group of accounts due to my increasing challenges to his abuse of other accounts and the platform itself. For whatever reason he has put many of his abuse accounts into hibernation.
In the past i had challenged @themarkymark for being dishonest directly to me several times. I had also challenged him regarding his ongoing support for the many abuses of @berniesanders.
What initiated this round of abuse from @themarkymark can only be due to @berniesanders putting his abuse accounts into hibernation.
I did leave two very polite comments (weeks ago) requesting justification for attacks on a specific account which to me seemed unjustifiable. He ignored both requests and a couple of weeks later started attacking me.
My thinking is that he does not enjoy me pointing out that Bernie openly claimed to control the top 20 witness selection. I guess his position feel threatened as they are business partners.
It is my opinion that if we are to realize the potential of Steem, we desperately need to have open discussions about Witness selection.
One account 20 witness votes does not work when bernie and markymark are constantly creating new accounts. We could easily end up creating a dystopian shit hole which is just one continuous flag war. Just like the rest of the physical world : (
Because he is a troll, spammer, and likes to spread lies. I recently started flagging him as he is going around spamming lies. When I started flagging him he was already (-2).
Haha hey @themarkymark come on, you know I have a reputation for being honest : )
And to call me a spammer and a troll is most amusing. Lets inject some reality into this conversation shall we?
You are abusing me because I tell the truth about @berniesanders and @themarkymark.
You openly support and have or had a business partnership with not just the largest Stake holder, but he was also :
The most prolific spammer,
The most prolific self voter of his own spam,
The most prolific abuser of account holders
The most deceitful promoter of Flag wars, even stooping as low at to establish the @ranchorelaxo account just to provoke a flag war lol
Now @berniesanders is using his @ranchorelaxo account to abuse poor old @preparedwombat for testing the new Free Flag Regime on @berniesanders LOL
I am sure bernie is in violation of the agreement made by doing so
As for your own behavior, you WERE running cover for all that crap!
Now you are chief abuser of the platform and you restarted you attacks against me even though the only contact you had from me was two very polite inquiries i made to you regarding another account you are abusing which seems completely unjustifiable to me.
You chose to ignore me and i just left the subject alone untily you started abusing me again.
Its all there for everyone to see.
You are bringing this on yourself @themarkymark
You are choosing to abuse real people here without any justification the vast majority of the time.
How do you expect people to respond when you bullshit them right to their face ?
EDIT
The only nearly honest thing you said in your comment was my Reputation being -2
You are not being completely honest even then.
Previously it had been -4 and when it was getting close to being -1 it just got too much for you.
If your Rep fell that low I am sure it would stay there for ever. Mine will not because I am honest and many here know it
Not the same person.
It's painful reading everything you type because of how wrong you are.
Disagreement is a positive thing when done right.
The reality of this world can be very difficult for some to accept at first. This is how corrupt power structures maintain dominance in the real world.
'Oh, They wouldn't do that!' lol
Just think about it. What has the bernie group of Thousands of Accounts been promoting all along?
Would you agree he has been promoting flag wars?
Hi @joe.public
I have now read several of your posts and what you write about @themarkymark it will be a long-running war between you.
It's time to think about whether you can find a solution to the problem together. It's time to dig down the battle ax and smoke a peace pipe. The first thing is to write a blog without hanging out others.
Talk to @themarkymark and apologize, no matter how difficult it will be for you to do so.
If you do, I'll help you with your reputation if your posts indicate it.
And there are several that will help you get started again
See the possibilities now and not the problems
Regards @xpilar
Yes valued customer is saying a similar thing and you are both right.
I really appreciate the extraordinarily kind offer and overall support and encouragement.
You have reminded me that there are more wonderfully warm and supportive people here than the others kind : ) I actually feel a bit emotional lol
Nice to hear, thanks @joe.public
Hi @xpilar This is a follow up to my previous comment.
I am thinking that I will need to take this in stages. First I shall refrain from making any comments with regard to him for a few days.
I can easily acknowledge that my comments and posts regarding this matter have not been encouraging retention or growth of the platform to say the least.
I do have a few things to say, but a blanket apology at this point in time, would be disingenuous of me. I hate it when others are being disingenuous so I will not even attempt to throw some bullshit together. Whatever I say will need to be real. I know well how to get there, and there is an internal process to alter my mind set that will take a little time. Being on auto flag is not the most helpful thing for that process.
cheer
Hi @joe.public
I understand that it is not easy,
but it is good to hear that you are thinking of doing something about it.
Hi @xpilar I invite you to take a look at what he just did.
Do you think an apology is in order?
You made your bed, enjoy it.
do you have a link? @joe.public
Hi @themarkymark
Thanks for the great feedback
The reason must be great now that he was already down -2 rumors
A case like "2 REPORTS are the pages that get interesting hear what his tells us
I'm not sure I quite understand your response.
You can look at the 100-200 comments he made in the last few days if you need more information.
@themarkymark You are a dishonest, disgusting piece of shit
Those comments you claim are spam! were in response to your ongoing Auto Flag abuse lol
SO how could anyone possibly believe you when you say ''I am Attacking him because he is a spammer''
Your compulsive dishonesty is just digging that hole for yourself deeper and deeper.
@themarkymark's relentless abuse of many accounts, is in clear violation of the terms of service agreement. All of his accounts used for flagging need to be terminated by Steemit inc forthwith
Thank you for your attention
You accuse me of spreading lies.
What lies have I spread ?
Those mostly were NOT comments.
You know full well that they were comments. They weredrawing your auto flags.
@themarkymark has many accounts including @steemflagreport so he can be a whole clan all by himself. He is a cristian asshole... a hater
I don't own @steemflagreport, it's not even a valid account.
You were flagged because you were doing this across many accounts and pretending to talk to your alts while circle-jerking their comments.
By no means a full list of your accounts.
@lokiyngling
@vegawesome
@ratatoskwestgoth
@ernstboe
@stefanmilde
@frejboe
@flugzvamp
@askskugge
@owlglow
@manylar
@ljungbuske
@steemflagrewards
Thats what you do with al of your 100.s accounts...
Name those 100s of accounts that we apparently do have.
Each individual doesn't count.
... and you do it with delegated steem... you a thief...
Why did you dont use @themarkymark @steemflagrewards.
Because SFR is not him?
Are you really that dumb or just trolling?
You are the one who pretended to be at least 5-6 people.
@steemflagerewards bid bot usage
https://steemit.com/steemleader/@mysearchisover/steemleader-abuse-stats-140790-23-638
Oh... if you do it its not #abuse
Its so obvious that @themarkymark @steemflagrewards are the same guy and you got a lot of other accounts.
Obviously not because you are dumb as hell.
@themarkymark @steemflagrewards @enforcer48
the same christian bully
!dramatoken
You have
DRAMA!To view or trade
DRAMAgo to steem-engine.com.I got downvoted! I wonder what ”rule” I didn't follow?
You didnt follow the Steem statute number 73, code number 14 RF underscore 2, third paragraph of the "Abuse Response act" of 2018.
Im sorry but you should have read up on the rules before posting this.
73... underscore?
They are not any gods, they are fascists?
WTF...
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Dude. Read the statute. Its only 55 pages. (2.5 paragraph so it isnt much)
Theres a PDF file listed on www.abuseemtilltheycry.com
Gods, not gods.. Its up to interpretation.
They call me "Hermes the Steem Messenger", im a lower tier "abuse crusader", i just deliver the messages. (They dont let me do more. Pls give me a good review. 5 stars. I need a promotion. This job sucks)
We hold monthly discussions in the SFR discord chat where we sacrifice virgin steem authors to "The Markiest of Markies".
They let peasants have a few words every time.
Prepare a speech.
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#abuse @steemflagrewards
Source
Spamming comments is frowned upon by the community. Continued comment spamming may result in action from the cheetah bot.
More Information:
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Comment Classifications
Is there a reason you feel you need to use multiple accounts? Wouldn't it be easier to only use one account? #customerservice #steemruler
...everybody who wrote at you are are you... circle searching
Regarding @lokiyngling
you are right its not a great thing to be doing.
However we both know that you were silent regarding other groups of accounts doing the same thing on a much larger scale.
I saw that @ ranchorelxo flagged you. Was that a decoy flag or is it really not his?
WTF!
Stop texting to the fascist @lokiyngling...
Now have the bastard started to downvote me again! 🥺
Posted using Partiko iOS
@themarkymark has many accounts including @steemflagreport so he can be a whole clan all by himself. He is a cristian asshole... a hater
yep you are not wrong
I'm not personally a fan of the flag.. I think I've done it twice.. both times with a explication why.. but when you start monetizing downvoting it just becomes another way to earn money..
I agree with @teresah .. commenting on the wrong post can make you a target
Hi @davedickeyyall
was not aware that it was possible to make money downvote
I thought I read there was a rewards pool for down voting.. part of the latest HF
Hi @davedickeyyall
Steemit FAQ says
I agree with you, sir. Downvotes must be given after being warned first.
yes @elianaelisma, it must be the right way to do it
You are right, downvotes don't have to be done without a reason.
yes, it must be the right way to do it @rihonkeugata
There is always a reason, even in some cases the reason might be misclick, or less of one than that. Still everyone can vote however they want and If you don't agree, the action you can take is to vote differently yourself.
I agree with your opinion.
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thank you @elia34928
I believe there must be a better UI or better design for downvote use, suddenly losing payout doesn't look good, the other day I was flagged even just a small amount, doesn't feel very nice for sure. I understand you. Those names you tagged, I think they are really trying to return reward to the whole reward pool.
That said, flags still feel personal, I wonder if there's any better way to do that. I see downvotes quite normal on other platform because they are mostly anonymous, and not related to the actually rewards. Say if I'm a nobody on instagram, my okish photos are only liked by some friends.
I do think stake based influence system can be designed better.
Hey, I'm one of those who is redistributing rewards and believe that upvote and downvotes play the same role. It's as simple as that. I have no interest in getting involved in flag wars, that's wholeheartedly unhelpful for the platform.
I've bought up 10k steem this last month or so and I want the platform to thrive as we will all grow.
I've been hit with downvotes from these small accounts as well, in fact, in the past have had posts flagged to 0 because of things I said and that hurt at the time.
This is the Internet though, bad things happen and we can't be so sensitive to it. But with Web 3.0 that is being built on steem, we all have a stake in the platform by virtue of Steem power, and have a say in where we want rewards to go to which INCLUDES the downvote button (I prefer the rewards redistribution button).
Anyway, I'm not out to get anyone, just using the reward distribution tools as they were intended.
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Hi @nickyhavey
And why are you giving these users 100% downvote
Have you explained why you give them a downvote?
@xpilar
Why do I need to explain? Do you explain why you give 100% upvotes to the users you do?
It's the same concept of rewards distribution I've explained elsewhere on your original post.
If we are going to go down the line of asking about every downvote decision then we need to do the same for every upvote decision.
Edit: I have now explained my decision to downvote on all the posts you highlighted above due to disagreement with rewards given and will provide explanations as to why I downvote in future on posts made.
Thanks for the debate
Hi @nickyhavey
The red flag is to impose a penalty on someone, so the receiver of the penalty should know why he is receiving the penalty.
It's nice of you to tell those you downvote about why. Because then that person and others know why you use downvote and can decide on it. and then it should be enough with a post to the user from you even if you then continue to downvote them again
This is a great start, thank you very much
There is no more red flag (at least on steemit.com; some other UIs may still use it). Actually there never was, the downvote was always a downvote, where people can express their opinion on payout value (just like upvoting and downvoting on every other site), but some genius decided to change the downvote to a flag, which made it into an attack (you did something wrong! Wave the red flag!).
Downvote simply means one thing, that the voter thought that the payout should be lower. Upvote means the voter thought that payout should be higher. That is all it means.
thank's for your feedback @smooth
But it is appropriate to explain why a downvote is also done on good content that does not have much merit
So it is clear that this is being used incorrectly
I don't agree on expecting explanations. There is a good reason not to expect or demand that downvoters explain everything. Downvoting is not rewarded the way upvoting is. Anyone downvoting is either malicious or doing a public service. Malicious downvoters won't explain and demanding more uncompensated effort and explanations from those doing good by downvoting means that less people will be willing to do it.
Just as others have stated that upvotes don't get explanations, downvotes often won't either. Just accept it as the subjective opinion of the voter (even if you don't agree with it) and go on with life (which could include also making your own, contrary vote, or not).
Hi @smooth
I can't agree when it is malicious, it will ruin the platform
Nothing you can do about it (other than vote differently/better).
I get that you're venting and that's understandable but in the end malicious people are going to be malicious. It is up to the good people to see they don't do too much damage.
Hi @nickyhavey I dont understand what is wrong or bad for Steem for accounts to receive large payouts.
I get the bid bot part. I notice that at least one of the accounts you mention buys votes but from what i see he does it at a time that derives benefit to smaller curators. looks like a positive thing from my perspective.
@joe.public
Appreciate the comment.
Nothing is wrong with large payouts, I never said there was a problem with that. The problem has been with over- and under- rewarded posts and that's where our rewards distribution tools (the upvote and downvote) come in to play. In fact that's the whole reason for them as it's your way of saying if you think a post is over or under rewarded.
Unfortunately though, as you and I have talked about in other conversations (even with your kiwisteem account), no one is this objective - humans...🙂
I'll be writing a post about it all from a neutral stand point (Bluffer's Guide is being brought out of retirement) and then I'm staying well away from this topic forever haha!
Forgive me if I don't respond anymore to you on this or any other post after the one I'll be posting. I've said all I wanted to say here, made peace with everyone and have got more positive things to do for steem like sharing travel and Drum & Bass posts 😉
Rock on bro
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I look forward to reading it : )
Hi @joythewanderer
Yes, it feels like a personal attack when you get a red flag and you don't know why it is being done.
You can see what @smooth did here, gave me a downvote of $ 7.08. It doesn't feel right because I don't think he even looked at my post. When @smooth provides such a powerful downvote, he should comment on that too
Hey I feel you, one of my post was also flagged by smooth, I think it's because I wrote the post in English and my writing skill isn't very good. But still even knowing that and knowing probably smooth wants to make the rewards look more fair to the quality, I certainly didn't feel very good that day.
It feels a bit like someone thinks you are not worth it. I think the problem is also steem is just lack of top notch quality posts at the moment. If there are loads of high quality posts, we will admit maybe our posts aren't worth, but now it's not the case yet.
Did you use bidbot?
Hi @joythewanderer
Earlier, long before HF21, I also used bitbot to promote posts, but I understood that using them was no longer my way.
I also delegated to budbots before to increase my profits, but have also stopped
delegating to them.
Now I'm leasing out SP to other users now, a small part
I see that sometimes I get votes on my posts from the bidbot
But they vote of their own freedom, I don't pay for it
Noticed that this seems like a reasonable response. It can feel a little personal and many of us are paying a price for it as well.
It certainly isn't perfect.
The goal is to normalize the downvotes. However the revenge downvotes are also free.
It's an interesting time to be sure.
Hi @whatsup
Thank you for your feedback
Yes, they are here "revenge downvotes" and I am afraid what they are doing.
Therefore, I also believe that a yellow flag should be introduced where you have to type in a comment field before it can be used and without the possibility of downvote. It is the first warning to the user before it is possible to give a red flag. It's about learning and not just punishing.
You were one of the reasons why I went away from using bidbot
Because you told me why when my profits got too high
Hope more people here understand how important it is to get help from others and learn about Steemit and not just give a punishment
I'm hoping this is just a phase well people get used to using their downvotes and a new pecking order is established.
There will always be people behaving badly. Maybe that is revenge downvotes. Maybe it is trading upvotes (which feels fine to the people doing it of course, but cheats everyone else out of whatever part of the pool is going to pay for traded votes that don't reflect merit).
It isn't those misbehaving who define the system, it is what everyone else does about it. When you see revenge downvotes, upvote. When you see vote trading or undeserved/bought/self upvotes, downvote.
thank's for your feedback @smooth
You give me an honest answer thank you for that
good job, have fun
Yellow flag! So now if i need to pull a red you've been warned! lol jk!
Hahaha! The traffic light system of flagging... That's an interesting one!
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Hi @coininstant
Don't you think everyone needs a warning before they are red-flagged.
See you get downvote on your posts. After all, it would be nice to have it cleaned up 🙂
When you go to downvote on steemit, there are reasons that appear for doing it. I always downvote for disagreement with rewards distribution if I do.
I did comment a couple of times but then do you comment every time you give an upvote? If not, why not? When I realised what "upvotes and downvotes" were then they are an equally important tool to help the steem ecosystem.
The way I see upvotes and downvotes now (since the latest hard fork) are ways of distributing rewards and are thus the same. You can either distribute rewards by an upvote if you think something deserves more rewards or you can redistribute rewards back to the pool with a downvote.
Do we go around Facebook asking why every one gives different reactions to a post? Every thumbs up and thumbs down on YouTube, reddit, Spotify etc?
That's my thoughts on it anyway but if we are going to go down the line of asking for reasons for downvotes, then we will need to do the same thing for upvotes.
Thanks for the tag, definitely something that needs to be talked about.
Nicky
Hi @nickyhavey
Well I understood it so you gave a downvote that you think the payment is too high and you probably read the whole post so you are sure your downvote will be correct. It is clearly not done by many others who provide downvote on records. I understand that dirty posts deserve it with spam and plagiarism.
But how do you calculate the values of the downvote do you have a facet to it or is it at your discretion,
The ones I give upvote to are from 5 - 100 Power according to what content is of importance to me on their post as I read
On My own posts, I always give upvote to those who leave a comment and I reply too. It creates coziness and you also make new 🙂
Hey @xpilar, you're right, I do read every post I downvote and if I think it is receiving too high a payment - I just didn't comment on all but I will do now.
Here's my background so you know where I'm coming from. I'm a content creator myself and have been making posts here since March 2018 (travel and music) and have been featured many times by travel curators and picked up 3 or 4 curie rewards. I have never used bid bots myself and each post takes on average between 1-2 hours to write if it's a music post and 5-8 hours for a travel/life one.
I have read a lot of posts from various authors since I've been here of varying standard and by experience, you get to see and learn how much effort someone has put in to a post, the actual quality of the post (style, formatting, flow, readability etc), how informative it is, lessons taught and compare these against the current reward and I make a decision from there as to whether to upvote or downvote. This is for my manual votes. I follow curation trails from manual curation initiatives like c-squared, curie, travelfeed and steemitworldmap as I know they have similar approach.
I'm with you that not everyone does this, seems like some just downvote for the sake of doing but I'm not one of those people and I don't know if anyone else you have tagged has replied offering their points of view.
As I said before, I'm not out to start problems or wars (they are not good for this platform) and I don't work with anyone else on downvoting what I do. In fact I have given downvotes to some of those in your list from the original post!
I hope you understand the point of view I have with it all now and I'm not the enemy here 😁
As for upvoting comments on posts, it's rare to see that now since HF21 pretty much destroyed the rewards on voting comments. Makes it more difficult with more VP needed but kudos to you for that.
See you around 💪
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I want to thank you @nickyhavey very much for responding and highlighting what you are doing on the platform. If everyone did it the way you think, there would be no problems. At the time of writing, not many people have responded from the list I left out. It also shows that someone has a different agenda.
Today there was a red flag on this post and in my opinion it has nothing to do with bad content or the profits are too high. The account that gave me a red flag is very small and has no bearing on my profits or reputation.
But what worries me is that there are many such small accounts that are giving the red flag now. Imagine they have a different agenda and give the red flag to other small accounts that are of good quality, they will have a reputation issue going down instead of going up in reputation
@xpilar
And I want to thank you as well as I have learnt a lot from this discussion and will make sure I give constructive feedback on posts I come across, whether they are from big or small accounts, as I feel it is in our interest to help people grow on this platform (not just financially but skills as well).
As for these little accounts flagging, I know only what I've been told about them but basically, it seems like it's a network of accounts from camillesteemer. She got caught plagiarising a few times when she was uploading non-original music, claiming it as her own and has since been on a downvoting spree on everyone (me included). I remember when I got my first from that group of accounts and yes, it's not nice to see a downvote.
However, they are what I call "shell accounts" and have just left it running on auto pilot so there's no one behind the wheel so to speak. In terms of rewards, they are not doing anything so no need to worry about rewards being removed.
Unfortunately, I don't know what can be done about them other to say to people to ignore them as they don't post anything. Perhaps working with communities like steemterminal that plays a big part in onboarding new folks?
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hi @nickyhavey
Thank you
Yes you are right I agree with you.
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thank you @csharma
Yes ! You are Right...I agree with you.
thank you @galleryworld
I think psychology has a lot to do with the problem. In the ideal world the system of flags should work properly, regulating the posts and increasing quality. However, we find out that people flag because they can, because they feel powerful, because they enjoy hurting others and because they have agendas. We have to remember that there is a percentage of humans who are sociopaths (impulsive and disregarding social rules) and another smaller percentage who are true psychopaths who enjoy hurting and taking advantage of people.
I can agree and disagree with you on this. If we look at the bots that throw DV senselessly like camillesteemer or whatever it's called then ya you're right.
But you are wrong to assume this for every person that DV.
The thing is, we are allowing too many posts gain too much with non quality content. Would you agree that a post about a horse talking about it being brown and black, containing a 3 sentence paragraph and two pictures, gain 75$ out of it? Or would you say, this is horse shit and downvote this crap? Those who make good posts deserves good upvotes.
We need to look at our jobs differently to be successful. Not abuse and be greedy. Talk to me about the sunshine and rain and get $100 and for sure youll find me dv-ing. Talk to me about the science of a tornado and make $2 you'll find me upvoting.
I haven't been DV anyone but since all this has come to my attention, I will definitely start. People need to stop being so butthurt over being flagged over a post they took no heart in writing just to get paid. If it's not good work it shouldn't be personal.
☝️ this, all of this!
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I do not assume that all downvoting people are bad agents. I am more concern about the effect. We cannot just ask people, not to be "butthurt", it is a natural reaction.
Hey @marcusantoniu26, for me, the downvoting tool is just as important as the upvoting tool in determining where rewards are distributed.
I have only used that downvote button maybe 10-15 times since HF 21 because I have disagreed with some of the post payouts that have happened. What's the actual harm in that?
Surely it's more harmful to the growth of Steem if we are only upvoting and distributing rewards in one direction for posts?
Not everyone who uses the downvote tool is on a power trip, enjoys hurting others or has an agenda.
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I do not see them as mirrors, just as negative interest rates are not mirrors of positive interest rates. I think there is power in just ignoring the poor quality posts.
You may want to check my latest post (Bluffer's Guide to Steem) as it explains almost everything in non-tech speak. There's some pretty useful comments in there as well and seems to have resonated with the steem community.
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Hi @marcusantoniu26
TThanks for the great feedback
I understand what you are saying and it is part of what is today using the flags,
so I hope a yellow flag with comment line must come first cause the red flag comes with a downvote
That is actually an idea I like, the yellow flag.
Nice to hear, thanks @marcusantoniu26
I agree with your opinion
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thank you @nurmalaalibasyah
This is the brother that I agree with on your whole point
appreciate it, thanks @hafijur-rahman
I agree with you, and I support @xpilar 👍
appreciate it, thanks @midiagam
you're welcome @xpilar 😊
I just got two random downvotes from radang and someone else
Hi @teenagecrypto
Yes, it's a shame,
did they say why they gave you dovnwote?
No
Hi @teenagecrypto
Then it would be nice to have a yellow flag with a comet so you could understand why it was done
But they were bot accounts created by someone.
Yes @teenagecrypto , there are several such services that will offer autodownvote to users, it is scary
After all, there will only be another major flag war
Those are like 15 SP accounts and there are many of them, all controlled by one account. All just no power serial down voters,. Poke around their profile, wallet, block chain explorer and you will see them for what they are. Also those down votes are so low powered with no rep to speak of they don't even impact the payout at all.
I've had 4 or 5 of them down vote me, just ignore it or go down vote the one post they may have made and help sent their rep to 0.
Yes @chromiumone , I see that there are many of them and they do not have much power, but it can affect other small accounts with good content and damage their reputation that needs to grow. It may be enough for small accounts to grow not staying here on Steemit. therefore, there should always be a comment with a warning before you can use the red flag.
Important speach, i am also agree with you..
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thank you @nevlu123
Well said. You are right.
I was downvoted huge without warning. I didn't know bot is ilegal. No body told me this before. He also did't warn me. Just downvoted.
How funy
Hi @engrsayful
so they did not say why they gave you a downvote
That is why I want to highlight the problem
When i shall have voting power, i gonna treat them.
While my name isn't mentioned in your post, given that I've made @lalala's Daily Top voter list yesterday for the Daily top 50 downvoters on October 2nd, I figure it's just a matter of time before I am. 😜
I was considering doing a post about this, but as my offline life is crazy busy at the moment, for now these are my thoughts - I personally think that DVing to return rewards to the pool from over rewarded posts is a good thing. So much so that I'm using @howo's downvote tool to automatically DV anyone that @theycallmedan downvotes, as I trust his judgement in this.
Once I can sit down and focus, I might even add a couple other individuals to my list, as Dan doesn't DV on a daily basis, and I want to use my free DVs as much as possible at this point. I feel we're at a (hopefully positive) tipping point, and I want to do what I can to help.
I agree with @nickyhavey that, "I'm not out to get anyone, just using the reward distribution tools as they were intended." 😊
Well said @traciyork, if we all use the reward distribution tools as they were intended this place will thrive and encourage great content creation, and give it the rewards it deserves.
I'm not after personal battles or flag wars so will be leaving a comment on anything I choose to redistribute the rewards to 😉
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So far I don't see the reason to put you on the list @traciyork
The list came up because I wanted some answers from those standing there to elucidate a problem
I assume you have read through my entire post because then you have a starting point to evaluate my content.
I mean everyone should read content before giving a downvote / flag for content can be different from the same user and rewards. Just because that person has been on a flag list does not mean he / she deserves the flag once again or if someone rated the merit as high.
If you want to use autodownvote without seeing content on the record be completely wrong
You do not know if the user still deserves to be voted down.
As you can see, my suggestion is to use a comment l flag with warning before you can give a downvote. If someone flags you, you will also want to know what you did wrong so that it can be addressed better next time
hey @traciyork
do you mind if i ask what it is you are trying to protect?
Protecting people from recieving large payouts?
It seems to me that people receiving large payouts will bring more people here. Am I wrong about that?
I usually only downvote posts that have been flagged for abuse or authors who are consistantly flagged for abuse. If one person explains no need for everyone to explain. If the person already knows what theybare doing is wrong, no point in constantly reminding them.
I don't see flaggers as a police force or judges. I just see them as concerned authors and curators who want to see organic growth and decent etiquette.
Revenge flagging is the biggest problem
People can tag and ask if flagged or give 1% revenge to get attention. Often they just whine all over the place and start flagging everything at 100%, it is madness.
Hi @abitcoinskeptic
I think we are in agreement
But think that a warning anyway should be there for factual reason.
Then others can also see the warning and the reason for the flagging
But I am afraid of what is happening now with those who use flagging for revenge
I think revenge flagging is the biggest problem. Another issue is it is so simple to avoid, but then the original reason for flagging the person doing the revenge doesn't get resolved.
However, trying to reason does work with most people, so being informative is great as long as at least one person on the post is having the right discussion with the person being flagged.
hi @abitcoinskeptic
I totally agree with you
Hi @abitcoinskeptic
Please forgive any intrusion, but something you just said strikes fear into my being.
''usually only downvote posts that have been flagged for abuse or authors who are consistantly flagged for abuse''
The reason this strikes fear into me is because i know for a fact that many ongoing flag attacks are completely unjustifiable.
I urge you to take a closer look at the behavior of those accounts which are attacked and ask yourself, does this person deserve to be personally attacked for their comment or post? : )
I have been looking for the last two years, and i eventually started speaking out about it.
I take a close look at accounts and authors before I flag them. I just find people who receive one flag are often 'repeat offenders' if you will.
I don't flag for revenge or opinion.
You seem to have a very low reputation. I guess you kinda do your own thing here regardless.
Hi @abitcoinskeptic Not exactly doing my own thing : ) lol
But maybe I am kind of, I am overly empathic. It distresses me a lot when I see people being abused (slightly autistic from a kick to the head when i was about 4, for attempting to protect my mother who had just had the side of head caved in by a blow from a big stainless steel table lighter, I have not changed much lol ).
Pointing out the abusive nature of some accounts is my crime here.
After bernies sudden shift , I was not being attacked at all. I was not even criticizing @themarkymark
I did leave two polite comments requesting his reasoning for attacking one specific account, and they were polite. I was mistakenly thinking that this New Steem idea was genuinely being taken seriously.
The evidence can be found by anyone who cares to look.
You are full of shit. (As always)
It's funny you also claim I have 1517 sock puppets because I have mined 1517 Account Claim tokens. Ignorant as usual.
That was after you started your campaign of abuse against me. Just my attempt to drain the power from your auto flags. You started with two accounts f i remember correctly?
Its all there for anyone who cares to look @themarkymark
I do appreciate your response, so thanks for that.
And you may recall I was given a delegation for the specific purpose of flagging you. You may also recall that I did not use it in that way. My thinking is that an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind
I flagged you after that comment, but feel free to spin your bullshit.
Its not bullshit,
you know it,
I know it
and everyone who goes back to look will know it.
Hey marky I am unable to find that thread which you chose to selectively screen shot. A link would be helpful so people can read the conversation for themselves and see exactly how subversive and dishonest I am .....or not.
I even admitted that i was starting to doubt what I was saying. That would count as proof when I say i can easily admit when I am wrong, its a good thing, really.
But it would make sense for you not to share the actual link. It would be like shooting yourself in the foot. especially as you accused me of saying you have 1500 and something sock puppet accounts.
If it has not been deleted i will find it and make a post
Interesting that you claim, that conversation was the reason you started to attack me. Especially now that I am unable to find a trace of it.
Part 2
It was not me who said that you have 1517 sock puppet accounts. It was a comment I received from someone else who has a problem with that woman Justine is it ?
She does not seem that bad to me, she will even engage with difficult conversations without resorting to flagging because of difference of opinion.
Libeling is not a difference of opinion.
I just had a conversation with her!
how is that libeling ?
Ah sorry, I realize you were referring to my assertions that you were supportive of bernie's games.
You certainly were not voicing any opposition. I had approached you several times about his behavior over the last couple of years and you just fob me off.
It is my understanding (going by hear say, i admit not checked by me) that you partnered with him with your bid bot. If that is not the case and I am wrong about that an apology would be in order.
Edit:
If that or any other assertions I have made are factually incorrect, I will be happy to retract and make a groveling apology. I find it very easy to admit my mistakes and errors of judgment.
I am open to correction, just let me know what I said that is factually incorrect.
Insinuating that I made comments about you holding 1500 sock puppet accounts when that was a comment I received and having me on auto flag because you want to exact retribution for defending myself is not helpful for you, me or the platform.
ok, anyway I'm not too interested in your opinion, but thanks for sharing it.
Downvote War is already started and will be growing. As I noticed many just join to downvote trial and in that case you may get downvotes from ten, twenty or even more accounts who actually even do not know why your post is used because they "trust" those people who downvote and give their power for that.
Of course many do manually and some of them read posts, but what makes me skeptic, when those people talk about a circle of friends voting friends and do not like it but that is how community works. Being for few years on Steemit we know those people so well, we know their stories, hobbies, learn their countries and cultures. It is like real good friendship. But those who downvote just come once and do not like such support and downvote. Looking at their account we see that they do the same, there is a circle of the same strong users who all the time supporting each other and their rewards are also shooting high. But they do not bother about it, because they have power.
I absolutely agree, those people who downvote with such powerful accounts should just as a matter of being respectful and polite gesture, just leave a message why it happens so that people may rethink and maybe change something. But without that the Users after being bullied will simply withdraw their Steem and leave the platform and invest in other Cryptocurriencies. That will be the end result of such downvote War.
Hi @stef1
It is scary and already in use
Here we fully agree, and it needs a change so that the system does not scare people, but instead attracts new people
100% agree on this, it is almost like now they have eradicated the spam posters the spare downvote power is burning a hole in their Steem account so they are just going after anyone that is posting something they might not particularly like.
It’s a sad regression because for a few weeks after HF21 Trending actually worked and had posts I was interested in. Today it’s back to being the same names over and over that obviously are in a massive Steem power holders circle vote - that nobody dare downvote
If this continues post quality will just keep dropping, because who wants to spend hours creating a post - only for someone to decide they don’t like it so they will remove all the rewards. And with the totally uncalled for downvote trails - the situation is just going to get completely out of hand.
It’s frustrating for me because pre HF21 I reassured many people the Steem blockchain was better then this, and the downvotes would be used to control spam, plagerism and liable content only. More fool me.
Posted using Partiko iOS
Not everyone is like this.
I try to offer constructive help and will do on anything I downvote moving forward and I think that's where the true power and benefit of the downvote lies in offering constructive criticism.
Sadly, it looks like I'm the only one who was tagged in that list from the original post who is bothering to reply so I'm starting to feel like the exception to this rule.
If I start getting revenge flags, I'd like to think an honest and adult discussion would happen between me and the person who did so we can work it out as that's where progress can be made.
Call me a radical thinker but shouldn't the ultimate aim be to help each other make amazing content that will bring people here and we can all thrive?
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Yes @nickyhavey, it seems that you are the one standing up and explaining why. For that I want to thank you again
I'm sure some more people have seen their own names on the list, but as I say some have a different agenda than what you have.
I could have made that list a long shot, but don't think many will answer. But we have a problem for now comes autodownvote for users where they trust others to provide downvote / flag.
Imagine what can happen when they do not know what they are doing to down vote and not read the post
@xpilar
This is what it should be about for me. People having honest conversations about what can be done to improve a delicate situation. I can't speak for the other users you mentioned as I don't know them really.
Yes I saw the post on trending about the downvote tool from a guy called howo?... I'm not sure that's a great thing and agree with you (I also downvoted it because it was over $100 and didn't agree with that reward which I mentioned). I think we need to be very careful with "bandwagon downvoting".
Maybe I should write a post about it all 😁
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@nickyhavey
Good on you for nailing your colours to the mast. I find myself a little conflicted or, perhaps, confused. Or both. It seems that some of the proposals are for just another generation of bots - or am I missing something?
I do like the notion of redistribution and until that is understoood (if it ever is), these debates will continue to rage. I also have to say that nine time out of ten, when I upvote a post, I comment on it. As for the downvotes, call me a wuss or perhaps the accounts I follow don't use bots or I'm not sufficiently savvy to identify bid bot abuse. Perhaps I should pay more attention.
Yea well it's come at a cost to my mental health what's happened over the past 3 weeks and I've got a flag from someone who supports xpilar on my two posts as well without any message as to why which is ironic given the situation...
Smart to stay out of it Fiona, I'll see you around 💪
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I think you have been flagged back by them for doing the same. Therefore, I believe that all red flags should also provide a comment when used. So I am very happy that you are now giving a comment when you flag @nickyhavey
If everyone continues without saying why they are flagging someone, this will end up with a giant war
I am sorry about this @nickyhavey. Full upvote for your comment - for what it's worth
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Hi @nickyhavey
I think you should write about it.
Because you see everything from both sides of the table now
Hey @xpilar, I finally managed to get my post out about it and hope you find it useful.
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Hi @nickyhavey
I hope they with another agenda read your post and opened their eyes.
If they could only think like you, the problem would be no problem
Thanks again for the post you wrote
Hey @xpilar
I appreciate the conversations we have had about this all. It really has been an eye opening experience the last 6 weeks.
Keep up the great work with your digital art. I take it you use the #creativecoin tag?
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Nice to hear, thanks@nickyhavey 🙂
Hi @c0ff33a
Glad to see that you understand what I want to illustrate with my post about downvote, but I'm willing to believe with enough illumination about what's going on now, many who use downvote will see it differently
Therefore, I call for a yellow flag with comment before a downvote can be given. changes here must be made before it goes too far
Lovely to hear your thoughts @c0ff33a,
Agree with your comment in its entirety.
Kind Regards from @bleujay/@bentleycapital.....
Thank you for your service as a witness.
Cheers!
Re-steemed.
♨ on!
thank you @novacadian
Very beautiful image, as usual
you have to read the post @sniper555, otherwise I dare you to spam me
lol ok. Most of my downvotes are for the number one reason on the downvote list (disagreement on rewards) as well as vote buying.
Think people should explain their upvotes more than their downvotes. that's where i see the most dishonesty.
Thank you for your feedback @michealb
I understand what you mean,
but using flags as revenge will destroy the great platform we have in the long run.
easy, dont revenge flag :)
yes @michealb, great if everyone could do it 👍🙂
on the downvote list?
If you dont mind me asking, whos list would that be?
And I am confused about explaining up-votes. Are just talking about self voting with alt accounts?
I a gree with you. those who give downvote should give the reason. And it's very good if they warn them first, and read the post before down vote.
I do not agree if there are people who give downvote for you. many users here survive and continue to cheer because of you. I dare say that 40% of users here survive and always be excited because of you. Because you keep giving a lot of good here.
You always give a lot of support to other users. and not only support for other users, you also provide support to the steem, as well as provide an illustration to others that steem must be supported. I think it is very unreasonable if there are users who give downvote for you.
Thanks for kind words about me @aulia1993
I want answers because I see a big war going on here and that's not why I'm on Steemit. I'm afraid the flag war is going to destroy the great platform we have
I think so too. I hope they realize this.
What to do when you're downvoted.
https://steemit.com/downvote/@grey580/what-to-do-when-you-ve-been-flagged-downvoted
Hi @grey580
Enjoyed that phrase
Your post was good
100% upvote and Re-Steemed from me
This is really well said
@xpilar, You've come up with prodoctive ideas and definitely these should be implemented because for newbies these kind of situation can lead to Dissapointment and definitely a bad impression for the Ecosystem.
Enjoy your time ahead and stay blessed.
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Nice to hear, thanks @chireerocks
Thank you and welcome.
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Greetings @xpilar,
Lovely to see you writing about this controversial subject.
Sorry.....but the downvote idea is a terrible one.....if spam is the problem then limit the number of posts, limit the number of accounts. etc.
Downvotes are sucking the lifeblood out of Steemit......a negative experience all around.
Sidenote...it has probably been three years since smooth downvoted bleujay's post.....when I had less than one dollar on the post..... englishtchrivy spoke up for me. hehe
However the same the as it is now....they had an untestesd idea.....they were going to go after who the whales had voted for...as I recall extremely unpopular when just a few were doing it....so now they given everyone the ability.
The point is it is memorable when one is downvoted......rather hard to forget...especially when it is nothing you can correct....you just happen to be in the way of their agenda.
So sorry to see you have been downvoted...it seems none are being spared.
Wishing you all the best.
Cheers from @bleujay.....
Send me a note when sanity has returned. hehe
Principle....There is no reasoning with irrationality.
Thank's for your feedback @bleujay
My opinion is that everyone must be given the opportunity to correct their mistakes, otherwise no one will learn from it.
I also made mistakes here in my start phase in 2016,
but @englishtchrivy took me under his wings and taught me what was right and wrong.
She became my mentor here at Steemit.
This made me teach to those who made mistakes in their startup phase as well.
Imagine if everyone could do the same here at Steemit and in the real world.
But now it seems that everything is just about money here and downvoter even though content is of good quality, yes they have a different agenda
Regards @xpilar
hey @bentleycapital /@bluejay
I enjoyed reading your comment very much. I admire the way you convey the significance of the situation while maintaining a certain lightheartedness.