RE: Sour Pressure - Inktober days 9 and 11
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Video of tape yourself might also be art, it all depends.
That is so true. I video-taped myself making some abstract paintings a while ago, just for documentation's sake. The video ended up becoming a type of performance art in itself, unplanned.
Butoh dance
Wow, I have never even heard of it, but viewing it, I am mesmerized. As someone unfamiliar with the history and cultural situatedness thereof, I lean towards it being art. The video I watched just now of it reminds me of the lead singer frontman of the band Tool, Maynard James Keenan. In his older live performances, he danced in a very similar style. I wonder if he might have been inspired by Butoh dance.
But do we as spectators need to know the history or the creation process behind a certain style or an art piece to understand it?
This is a very thoughtful question. Like you said, leaning toward a "maybe no", and with the addition of making one feel uncomfortable, etc., it all depends right. In the end, art cannot really be bound by rules. But I am reminded of a quote by a philosopher, William Marx in The Hatred of Literature, writing about literature that does not shock one:
"To refuse literature the right to shock, provoke, and make people uncomfortable is to impose upon it the constantly redefined duty of offering readers only what they expect—what they can accept, understand, and absorb. It is to refuse the power of reading to confront us with alterity. It is to demand that literature propose only sameness, that is to say something with which readers can wholly, blindly identify, without calling on their critical and hermeneutic faculties. It is to turn every reader into an eternal minor."
I think that quote can be relevant to all art as well. And I think Butoh dance also fits in this. It immediately makes one uncomfortable if you are not familiar with it. I am not sure if this is a legit and authentic version of it, but it is one of the first when I google it:
Again, irrespective of cultural and historical significance, this dance reminds me of performance art, I struggle to fit it into any predefined notions of art, it makes me feel uncomfortable, it challenges me, it makes me think differently, etc.
Sorry for the already too long comment!
I am so glad that the review got chosen and that you find it well!
Oh gosh, an honest mistake by me. I added the word of in my mind and also understood it so. Although I do love to misread words and purposely talk about that misread subject, this was an honest mistake.
My mind had this image of someone using actual tape (duck tape or something) and recording a video of that. 😀 But now that I read again our conversation, I don't think it matters that much if we talk only of a videotape or a videotape of taping oneself.
Anyway...
I found a Maynard James Keenan compilation and yeah, sure looks awfully like Butoh dance. Perhaps some krumping there too. I'm calling that authentic movement. Just free association. And I think most of us, if given no idea or ideal way on how to dance, or if our minds would be erased of the "rules" on how to dance, and also given the gift of not caring at all what other people think, when hearing that music, we would dance like he does.
That video you found (I think it's mesmerizing too) looks like very traditional Butoh dance, though I'm not an expert but sure looks like what can be defined as a reaction to post-war shock and discarding the traditional classical moves that are often described as beautiful and easily absorbed. The William Marx quote is spot on. About Butoh and art generally. We need art challenging us. Art at it's best is something that challenges us in some way. May it be opinions of the world or self reflection but challenge it must. Although some might disagree but fortunately we: you, I and William Marx know better.
Also we of course need art to show feelings like anger or sadness. Or to tell horrible stories. In my opinion, if something indescribably horrible has happened, why would an artist try to please the audience by sugarcoating it to a pleasurable art that doesn't make the people watching the art uncomfortable? Is it the same story or does it tell another story about pleasing people over your own needs. Stories that no-one perhaps wants to see or hear need to be told too because the world is full of them.
I love talking about art, dancing and philosophical topics so your comment wasn't too long at all. I love reading long comments, in this case especially! And besides, my comments are long too.
Here's one modern Butoh performance that combines so many things I love. Dancing, ingeniously video, glitches, weirdness and awesome city scenery with really cool colors. Not forgetting philosophy. The mood is so cool and the whole video is so captivating.
What a lovely misreading! I love this. Our language is awesome!
Great! And yes, I fully agree. There is something organic to his movements that everyone can mimic in that situation. I would guess that Butoh dancing has some more rules and structure for those familiar with it?
True, not everyone would agree. And sometimes I think people would react with real shock and not the more philosophical or artistic shock we are referring to, if I make any sense? Or let us label it horrified-shock. I think that reaction is not productive and can be psychologically scarring, but that just shows that some people are in fact, following William Marx, already "eternal minors", and they cannot be shocked in the artistic manner we are referring to. (Again, I hope I am making sense.)
Indeed! I am reminded of Goya's The Disasters of War plates. The absolute horror and shock they filled me when I saw them at age 16, but when I was older I realized that they are important: they remind of not of the disasters or war, but the horrors of war that our modern people shy too easily away from. It is not easy to look at, but that is the purpose! We should not be so desensitized from them as I am sure he meant to produce them as a warning for all the future viewers.
Thank you so much! I am going to watch it now and then I will respond in our next meeting in the ensuing comments.
Yes I think so too. Other than the things that spectators see right away, white paint and daily movements like walking. I haven't studied it, I just know that there is a dance style called Butoh and some trivia about it.
Yeah, I think your making sense, if I understood you correctly. If someone is offended or so uncomfortable when seeing art they don't like, they perhaps take it too personally or just can not deal with the negative emotions the art makes them feel. They prefer feeling glad, not sad because they can't handle it. Perhaps also generally too in their life.
As for the artist the way to deal with horrible things may be to create art. The assumption then is that the spectator either sees inside the artists head or if it's meant as a statement about the world, will wake up and start thinking and accept the things they feel about the art, not think that the art in any way is a personal attack.
Gruesome and awesome. So terrible but beautiful work.
When terrible things in life don't happen to you, one tends to forget that terrible things do happen all the time. Just to someone else. It's easy to just close your eyes and think about happy things if it's not directly happening to you at that time. And of course if you all the time think about how cruel life is, it would drive you crazy. So it's not just forgetting about the horrors of war or everything that is bad, it's actively forgetting. Choosing to forget. So that's where we also need artists. They (we) are the product of our time. Artists represent the state of the world and remind us all that the world isn't just a happy and sunny teletubbyland. There are also monsters here. And the archeologists digging our remains 500 or 5000 years from now, need to see our war plates.
Exactly yes. Rather than see it as an opportunity to grow and "become better" they prefer to be offended or to try and silence the artist.
Yes! Art is after all a form of communication. If we want to be all romantic about it, we can even go as far as claiming that the artist does not know how to communicate in words, instead, the artist communicates with his or her art. I think this can be all the more relevant with dance and performance art and Butoh. The video you shared in the previous post, the poem the artist voiced in some sense attests to this. Dancing to him is a way of expression, but it might also be seen as a response to the world or anything. I think we are about to write a theory of communicative art if we go deeper into this! 😅
Exactly. Well put! Art in this sense becomes less of communication in the strict sense (yes they can communicate over time like Goya might "communicate" with us), but it is rather "documentation" then. It serves as a warning that surpasses the mere "word". Words of warning from previous generations might warn us, but we do not always listen. Violent "gore" videos of war and disaster might scare us and we might look away or we might even become desensitized, but art is different. In art, we might produce "feelings" and "emotions" that stir the viewer in a certain way to "listen" and "look" differently than merely warning someone or shocking them. There are so many great examples of this, and most of these might be political art of our current times. Again, I hope I am making sense.
Yes absolutely! It's the "vegetables are good for you, eat them" statement. Command = bad, realizing on your own = good. There are people who never grow out of this. Opposing commands for the sake of opposing. Because someone else has given them straight facts or commands but not thinking about it further.
When art is published, put on walls, shows, represented, it is talked about, people seeing it perhaps think about why the art is made and realize things on their own and that usually has a better impact than someone just telling you how things are. Then again people can also just claim that they didn't understand the art or the art was ugly and that they didn't like it.
😀 Indeed. It's easy to go really deep when you love the topic. Get carried away. I am so glad you are just as enthusiastic about this as I am! And I appreciate your long replies so much.
I can write a whole piece on just this statement. People do not think, in my opinion, enough anymore. There is so much focus on (i) replying and (ii) appearance, that thinking becomes laborious and people often want to avoid it at all costs. I think this goes back to our previous comments on people not wanting to feel discomfort etc. But I can go on about this for too long!
True, but I watched something again today on Barthe's essay The death of the author and how this symbolizes the birth of the reader. So not understanding something speaks more about the reader than the author. But meaning, even the absence of meaning, lies with the reader.
The pleasure is all mine! If we had more time on our hands, we could go even deeper. Also, if I had more time to read up on all the theories in art, my own understanding of things would have been even better. But time is valuable and so finite.
I absolutely agree. Too much focus on answering, not listening and thinking. Although some people do expect people to say at least something, which is also in some cases a bit weird. But in a face to face conversation it's vital to know when to listen quietly, when to listen actively (I call saying um, oh, yes, no -words when someone is talking, active listening, although doing that too much is really annoying), when a comment is needed and does that comment need to have any solution to a problem or not. It's tricky but, as you said, if only people would listen more not thinking about what they are going to answer. And face to face conversation is also when an artist is talking with their art. Art / spectator conversation. "Panic! What am I going to say about this art?!"
But when talking about talking in the internet, it also may be that at this informative age, as we now know what someone on the other side of the earth, an some old schoolmate or previous neighbor, and hundreds of other people, say out loud, people who we never meet, only read their comments somewhere, it gives a wider understanding of all the people and about their opinions, and as they are not the people we have chosen to be in our precious bubble, their opinion, (or in this case their way of not thinking about things enough) comes right to our face and we are appalled about the fact and think that people do not think.
At least I am, almost every other day, I read something for instance from Twitter and I think to myself: "Wow, what is wrong with people, if they would just think about this, even a little bit, they would realize stuff and how stupid that sounds / is." And then I crawl back to my bubble that I've made comfy and cozy for me.
Fortunately there are (lots and lots, I believe and hope) like minded people with whom I can have interesting conversations with. Like here, in Hive. Now. :)
Yeah. I know. Me too it seems.
That is absolutely true! Art is so much more than just the painting in the wall, just the performance on the street or an dance show in the TV. It is given to the spectator and the spectator has a huge role in the conversation with the art. So not understanding it may mean that the spectator just doesn't even think. About anything. Because there's no wrong way to comprehend art. Art just is, the artist may or may not have something to say, lets go of the art at some point and from there on, it's the readers or spectators turn.
Oh no, I'm starting to feel like I haven't prepared for our conversation at all, I've just answered how I feel and what I remember reading. See, I felt a pressure to answer correctly so that my answer makes me more important than the fact that I could just listen and think. Oh no. :) We've come to a full circle.
So true, and as you brilliantly linked this to the speech between "art" and "artist" I think you have hit on something interesting here. When should the artist and viewer of an artwork "listen" to said artwork and when should they "reply"? Albeit that we place the artwork on a pedestal, I think that art has something to say beyond that of what the artist intended, but now I wonder how much and when we should respond to that artwork and when we should merely listen.
This will be the hallmark of our society. And who can blame us? I think back to something about the Ancient Greek schooling system I read. I am not 100% if (i) the information is accurate, and (ii) if I remember correctly, so do not quote me on this: the ancient's spent their formation years studying rhetoric and logic as the way in which you (i) present yourself/your argument and (ii) how you argued for said argument was more important than understanding mathematics. Or, understanding math and physics were important only after you mastered dialectics and the art of talking, presenting yourself or your argument. What I am leading to: we as the modern scientific society in some sense turned this around. We emphasize physics and math and neglect how we present these things. This obviously leads to schools also neglecting dialectics and how we use language and present arguments. And with everyone being able to voice an opinion on social media platforms today, emphasis is again on what you say rather than how you say it. Or something like that. Maybe I am making no sense at all!
And here we are again talking about the art and the role of the spectator. I think it fits perfectly in this reply. I will "synthesize" my first and second paragraphs into this third paragraph to respond to this line you presented. Maybe we as a society have neglected our vocabulary to respond to art or to play that role essential role in the conversation. I have ranted in a post on this idea, and I always talk to others about this, but the schools (in South Africa, as this is where I am located) focus so much on "parroting" work rather than understanding work that we are producing people who can remember facts detached from understanding. Or simply put, people are mindless fact machines rather than people characterized by conscious thinking, understanding, and wisdom. I know that this is hovering on wishful thinking, but I see it in my field (philosophy at university). People are struggling to think for themselves and to think period. Linking this back to art: I think people do not have the necessary vocab to engage with art as there is an essential piece of the puzzle missing.
No, please no preparation! It is all about feeling and responding to those feelings. I just like reading and my "to read" list is so long. There are various books on art and how we perceive the world that I want to read. So it was more a declaration from my side than a prescription haha. Sorry for taking so long to reply, I was not in the right headspace the weekend.
I've read this several times and every time I've been trying to answer to this but have been feeling little under the weather lately and can't seem to keep my thoughts together. Fall flu and sore throat. Nothing major though and getting better now.
Perhaps I'll come back to this some day when my brain isn't so foggy.
But I stumbled upon a tweet and I think that sums up part of our conversation really well so I just have to share it here.
https://twitter.com/illustravi_/status/1457532438574354432
Oh, no, I am so sorry to hear. Yes, when you feel under the weather it is not nice to concentrate. Please take your time, and if we never return to it then it is an offering to the gods of art!
And that tweet is really interesting and though provoking. I agree! Thank you so much for sharing.