Ragnarok Cones of Dunshire: Focus-Fire Demographics

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(Edited)

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Five days ago @ragnarok.game dropped some bombshells on us explaining some of the details how everything was going to work. It was on that day that I started to explain the rules to my girlfriend... and she cut me off (can you believe that?!) and said:

So you're going to be playing Cones of Dunshire then?

LOL... TOO REAL!

Thanks for that, babe.

https://peakd.com/hive-131619/@ragnarok.game/ragnarok-game-design-document

Since then I've been paying attention very closely.

I make it no secret that I'm pretty excited about the game and I think it has some really cool mechanics. The shield against Sybil attack is strong. The entry fee is high. The prize pool is large. Only the top 100 players win prizes, and many of those prizes are only acquired once a year, making the carrot at the end of the stick massive, which should attract diehard gamers to Hive.

However, there is some dissension in the ranks!

https://peakd.com/@aussieninja/re-edicted-r541tm

Ah... exactly how many opponents do you think you're going to have with a technically hard game to master, 40 minute play time, no bots and a $100 yearly fee?

I actually do wonder how many players will stick around a couple of months after launch anyway, just because of the complexity of it... I guess we'll have to see how fun it is. I'm personally pumped, but I just can't imagine it'll have a huge market.

EVERYTHING IS FOR YOU!
AND THIS ONE THING, IS FOR HIM!

haha

Do you know a wishing-well kid?
I do.

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In any case, it has already been stated that Ragarok is an elite spectator sport that isn't going to have a lot of players to begin with. Do the math, if only the top 100 players are part of the prize pool, then we would only expect 1000-2000 active players total. The same logic applies to a poker tournament. Only the top 10% of the players are going to make it to the money. Thems the rules.

Demographics

So who is this game for? Sure, the Hive community owns it. The airdrop is 100% going to the Hive community, but the game itself wasn't actually built for the Hive community. That's just the opening fair distribution. The game actually exists to serve hardcore/professional gamers.

A tournament that lasts an entire year is no joke. The grind is real. It's going to take real skill and determination to win this thing. It's also going to take a lot of risk and a lot of time and discipline. Let's be honest. That doesn't sound like the Hive community to me. This thing appeals to a small subset of gamers by design.

Meet: Ben Wyatt

Ben is the ultimate nerd architype. Remember when Game of Thrones was still cool? Ben was there. Remember when everyone wanted to have their own bachelor party but all Ben wanted to do was play Settlers of Catan? Boy were they annoyed.

but I just can’t imagine it’ll have a huge market.

Yeah, exactly. That's the entire point.

It's not supposed to have a huge market.

Just look at the world that the game takes place in. Hardcore Norse Mythology? Hardcore themes of sex, violence, and taboo combinations of the two during the middle of the apocalypse? Right off the bat, the game isn't supposed to appeal to a wide audience. Loki shapeshifts into a female horse, gets fucked by another horse and impregnated by it, and then gives birth to Odin's faithful steed: the eight-legged legend Sleipnir. How's that for a bedtime story?

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Oh that God of Mischief!

What a little raskel!

Getting major Diablo 1 vibes.

D1 was dark and gritty and awesome, and every game that came out after that was more candy colored bullshit designed to appeal to a wider audience. More users, more money. Right?

Well this game is going back to the roots. This game is probably not for you. The potential themes of bestiality and/or incest and just generally fucked up shit are probably going to be a bit much. Norse Mythology is insane, and I've only really scratched the surface in terms of my own personal knowledge of the topic. What did we expect in a culture who's primary strategy of wealth-building was raping and pillaging the world?

So back to Ben Wyatt

Ben needed another game; a better game. Settlers of Catan was too much RNG for Ben. He needed something complex and interesting. So he made his own game: Cones of Dunshire.

Now, the rules for Cones of Dunshire are purposefully absurd and complicated, but really it's the perfect example and analogy of what's going on here. Ragnarok isn't meant to appeal to a wide audience, except for the massive prize pool at the end of the rainbow. Who will succeed in ascending to the top of the ladder?

Looks like someone's out of resource gems!

Muhahaha!

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Again, the honeypot for this game is going to be massive.

Think about it:

  • Who owns the game?
    • Hive!
  • Who profits from the game?
    • Hive and the winners of the grand yearly tournament.
  • How big is a prize pool that takes a year to stack?
    • Pretty big.
  • How much value will the #1 player scoop?
    • If it's anything like poker, a ton
      • Sometimes 25% of the prize pool.
  • How much skill is involved in this touranment?
    • Chess and CCG and Poker... a ton.
    • Also there will be a good amount of luck to incentivize everyone into throwing their hat into the ring to get a piece of that massive prize pool.

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Taking a look at the "competition".

Well, technically there is no competition. This is going to be the first real WEB3 game ever with big prize pools and a lot of competitive strategy. Hive allows this to function through the zero-fee infrastructure. But taking a look at Twitch, what do we see? A Web2 platform where users depend on tips to make their money.

You do not own your account on Twitch.

Twitch streamers are a product of Twitch. If you're a girl and you have a wardrobe malfunction, you are banned. You lose your account and all your followers. If you say something racist: you're banned. If you do anything Twitch doesn't like: you're banned.

Gee, that doesn't seem like a very secure environment for professionals, does it? Zero job-security.

Outside of Twitch, what do we see? We see that the only way to be a professional gamer is not only to be the best in the world (top 0.000001%) but also you must find a sponsor that will pay you, because those rinky-dink prize pools for winning are garbage, and you might not even win it (likely). Crypto is going to change everything, and no one even realizes it.

What do you think will happen when these pro-gamers on Twitch and the like realize they can come to Hive and actually own their account? They can actually provably own a piece of the games they play. They can actually mint NFT skins that they designed and then sell them to other players. Oh man... you aint seen nothin yet. It's gonna get crazy around here, and Ragnarok is only a tiny tiny sliver of that action.

There will be hundreds of games built here that draws gamers away from all the centralized bullshit available today. Again, there is no competition. Dan hired over a dozen employees to make Ragnarok and he's giving it away for "free". Of course the profit will be in the airdrop he gives to himself and the value it brings to everyone on the Hive network. This, quite simply, is a business model that the legacy systems could never hope to copy in their wildest dreams. The dinosaurs think they rule the world even after the comet hits. They can't see the writing on the wall.

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Conclusion

Again, a couple thousand super serious players: that is all Ragnarok needs in order to function. This is not a traditional business model that requires millions of users to sign up. This game is deflationary by nature in every sense. I suggest you hold on to those NFT gods you get airdropped for at least a year or three.

Of course with 3M-33M NFTs being airdroped, and only 10 required to build a deck, it is still quite unclear exactly how many players we are going to actually have. Perhaps the casual version of the game will be free to play (aka don't have to spent HBD to heal every game and don't generate XP tokens). Whatever the case my be, the total number of players this game can host is clearly hard capped at some number. This is a feature, not a bug. We aren't aiming for quantity here, this is a quality-control issue. After this game I'm sure other ones that are more palatable to a wider audience will appear. Don't you worry: you'll get your pound of flesh.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta



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25 comments
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hmm... would love so much a NFT version of Diablo 1, or Panzer General...

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That's the beauty of this game, the fact that it is decentralized. It will be the real web 3 game that others would follow.

Every time I think of Ragnarok, I think of how massive the airdrops are going to be. It's really incredible what we are being offered here!

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It’s probably not for me. It’s also probably not as bad as I think. Time will tell

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

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Thanks for that break down, I haven't seen some of the mechanics till then... I am just getting going on Splinterlands, and not that kind of gamer... Will happily sit on some tokens though!

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I feel like I'm going to have to give it a shot, unprepared as I am to go up against anyone with a clue.

🎲
🎲

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Do the math, if only the top 100 players are part of the prize pool, then we would only expect 1000-2000 active players total. The same logic applies to a poker tournament.

And I’d guess that with @theycallmedan’s poker background, the prizes would be heavily skewed towards the “final table” and even more so the top three.

Just like in a poker tournament, nobody would want to be the Bubble Boy in 101st place so I’d expect a lot of side deals toward the end of the season with players taking pieces of each other’s action. Back when I played on PokerStars such deals were circumspect but in the brick and mortar cardroom tournaments I’ve played in (final tabled in maybe two dozen, took first place only twice), deals were commonplace.

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And I’d guess that with @theycallmedan’s poker background, the prizes would be heavily skewed towards the “final table” and even more so the top three.

Yeah I always thought it would be cool to spread out the prize more and not play that game of always trying to get 1st place, but it looks like that's where it's going.

Important to note that the winner might just be the person with the highest rating.
There might not be actual elimination rounds like professional sports and poker.
If this was the case, deals would be much harder to make.

It's also important to point out that even though getting 100th place might be a bit demoralizing... the NFTs up for grabs, even at that rank, might be unique and impossible to get other than winning them or buying them from a winner. It's not going to be like poker where all you get is a cash prize. Might be significant.

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Let's see what will happen. I expect 2022 will be a interesting year

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Such a cool post about Ragnarok, would have loved to see the #oneup tag on that.

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After reading your initial post when Ragnarok was first announced and now this followup, i think that you were right to say that non-players betting on these games could be HUGE, if it's possible for them to feel like they are part of the game as a bystander.

And, as i commented before, Peerplays was built for betting. It's gonna be interesting for sure!

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Do we know how long a match will take in Ragnarok on average? I don't think I have seen anything about it.

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

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Yeah the testing estimate is currently 10-40 minutes.

It's unclear what the average time is.
Probably like 20-25 min.

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"I suggest you hold on to those NFT gods you get airdropped for at least a year or three." - Thanks for this advise!

Posted Using LeoFinance Beta

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(Edited)

If there are only going to be 100 winners, those winners are likely going to be the largest whales as they will have the potential for having better cards/nfts/spells/whatever.

If I am understanding this correctly that is.

I realize that this game has more chance/luck incorporated as you don't know if someone will "attack for 100 or 50 or 10" or defend for blah blah

Just for perspective, there are huge games on Polygon like Cryptoraiders that allow staking/P2E that have blown up with almost 0 game play. If this is only going to be on Hive it's super limiting, there's no reason to really develop something ONLY on Hive when it could be on Polygon at this point. That's fine he wants to do that and what not, maybe it could grow big. But many games are Free TX on Polygon because there are already readymade sidechains that connect to Polygon, and the only time someone does a TX is to buy/sell items and thats only like 2 cents or less per tx.

DefiKingdom has over 1 billion usd in Total Locked In Value right now. I'm not sure we can expect much to come of the Ragnarok game as there is little incentive for most people to throw 100 HBD into it and earn nothing because the top 100 get it all at the end of the year. How many thousands of people are going to pitch 100 HBD into a money pit and lose it just to have fun? Maybe there is some way of earning stuff and selling it on the market that makes it P2E but then you need a public to buy those items too of course.

To me, the incentives don't make much sense for P2E unless I am missing something, only 100 people can win the prize pool at the end of a year? So that makes this game have a huge limiting factor of not allowing most people to win, I'm not sure if they can maybe earn doing daily activities/play, but again, I could be wrong, I didn't read through the entire thing.

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Why are you already talking about interoperability when the game hasn't even launched and we have a one year testnet to get through? Cart before the horse, friend.

Also, why are you complaining about 100 HBD when that is just a random number I pulled out my ass?
Honestly the entry fee isn't nearly as important as the cost to heal after each battle.

Something you are completely ignoring:

How much are XP tokens worth?
The top 100 players are forced to subsidize all the XP and buy it off the market.
It very well might be more profitable to farm XP and sell it on the market than to actually win the tournament.

Maybe there is some way of earning stuff and selling it on the market that makes it P2E but then you need a public to buy those items too of course.

How are the top 100 going to get into the top 100 without buying a shit-ton of XP?

I realize that this game has more chance/luck incorporated as you don't know if someone will "attack for 100 or 50 or 10" or defend for blah blah

blah blah indeed!

Have you played poker before? (no offense just curious) If someone goes all in over and over again you can just fold until you're pretty sure you have the best hand. Yes, there are a lot of luck mechanics here, but honestly it will be very very hard to beat someone who's ranked higher.

This game requires a player to win quite a few battles before they win a game.
This is going to require chess positioning on top of CCG deckbuilding and spellcasting on top of poker playing skills.
It's a lot is skill and luck all at once, played over and over.
If you play 100,000 hands of poker, the outcome is 99.999% skill.
If you play 1 hand of poker, the outcome is 99.999% luck.
The more we play the game, the less luck will be involved.

To end this rant.

There's nothing to complain about.
Game will come out and you'll see you can make money playing it.
All the money is going to be in XP tokens.
You're either buying them and spending more on the game or you're selling them into the open market.
Again, my guess is that some of the top played players will just be XP farmers.
More on this later.

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I've played chess, plenty of poker.

I'm not complaining.

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oh yeah i know you aren't
im just loopy

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HA! GOT YA! I WAS COMPLAINING ;)

Lollll.

Actually i've been pretty loopy lately too, too many kids running round this house!

Just another 7 years and maybe I can sleep again lol

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Sweet, so for someone like me that will not be a player. Does it make sense for me to sell my airdrop as I get them or hold them for potential value increase or find someone to play mine for me? Give the the magic answer Edicted! :-)

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I think like everything there will be an initial hype phase at the start.
It can be good to sell off a bit there, but it's risky.

Then the moment always comes were reality doesn't mesh with expectations and overhype.
Lot's of people will probably ragequit this game due to complexity and frustration.

Personally I have very high hopes and will hodl my airdrop and buy more when the dump comes.
I probably won't even think about selling anything till the second or third year.
It would make sense if prices/volume were the highest at the start and finish of every season.

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Impossible to answer really considering I have no idea how profitable renting out cards is.

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Reading your wonderful posts, I regret not being a gamer myself ...

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edicted has been replaced with a ragnarok promoter. lol

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